I love these threads where one looks for really weird issues .

YOU are the on site detective, we can only throw out suggestions based on what we read .

__________________
-Nate
1982 240D 408,XXX miles
Ignorance is the mother of suspicion and fear is the father

I did then what I knew how to do ~ now that I know better I do better

I'd vote that the lift pump is weak and the higher RPM from a pull start brings just enough fuel to the injection pump. As a test that might work, set the injection pump to the run position, run the manual prime then crank.

For a long term fix, I'd use a inline electric pump tied to a 2 terminal oil pressure switch that shuts off when oil pressure is zero and a cranking bypass so it runs while cranking. Even better is tying the bypass to the glow circuit or just a manual prime button.

I put electric pumps on lots of the industrial / construction equipment I work on and found it eliminates a long crank on worn injection systems.

Depending on engine / line size, here is what I use. These are around $ 30 from rock a


AIRTEX E8012S Electric Pump; Solenoid; 12 volts; 5-9 PSI; 30 GHP; 5/16 hose; Domestic Carbureted, 5/16 hose

AIRTEX E8090 "Solenoid; 12 volts; 5-9 PSI; 30 GHP; 3/8 hose; Domestic Carbureted, 3/8 hose"

AIRTEX E8251 Solenoid; 12 volts; 2.5-4.5 PSI; 30 GHP; 5/16 hose; Marine Low Pressure

These fuel systems need a higher feed pressure by design. They will run but not as well as they should on a 5 to 9 pound pump. There is a chance that the animal fats in the fuel you were using have congealed and are obstructing the element loading ports. In the injection pump. Or the lift pump seats are gummed up.

A real soaking of the injection pump is a start. Also that poster is right you have not checked to see if you have any fuel pressure present in the base of the injection pump. Could be the relief valve is gunked up and stuck open.


The injectors are not going to spray if the injection pump elements are not loading. Laquer thinner is my favorite solvent. Take a line from the input of the lift pump. To a container of solvent. Roll the engine over to load up the lift pump and injection pump. With the injector line nuts really loose if you do this. If the solvent level drops it verifies the lift pump is operational.


Or you can load up using the primer pump. When you feel resistance to hand pumping. It means the relief valve is working. Plus the valves in the lift pump are acting as check valves as they should. After a few days use the hand pump to purge the thinner out of the system with diesel oil. With the relief valve removed. So you can see if another soaking is needed. Previous reports of what has come out wherer indeed interesting in the past. Clumps of semi dissolved material sometimes.

That there have been a few individuals that have managed to run vegetable oil for years. This has stopped me in the past from reminding people that there is nothing really free in life out there. Everything seems to have a price one way or another. At least in my experience.

I've been running Waste veggie oil (WVO) for 12 years, UNCONVERTED, over 100K mostly on 2 W123's, but in above freezing weather only.



I have had few problems. One became difficult to start and ran noticeably poorer after about 40K. I took out the injectors and cleaned them as per another thread on the forum, and found that there was some crud on the bottom near the little pin, but the insides were quite clean.


As per another thread, i soaked the rings in Marvel mystery oil for about a week to eliminate possible stuck rings. Ran great after those 2 treatments, and still running fine after another 15K.


Conversions that screw up getting coolant or air in the fuel seem to cause most problems. I also get good quality oil, not cooked to death, and let the WVO settle a good while before filtering to 1 micron. I add about 2 gallons of gasoline per 55 gallon drum, less in hot weather, a little more if it is cold out.


If both these cars died tomorrow, they would have paid for themselves several times over in fuel savings.


This forum has been so helpful and i am very thankful.

This is almost certainly gummed rings, while the engine still runs get a water injection kit fitted -

Devils Own do a kit designed for de-coking engine deposits which is the system I used, after only short while (two trips with water) I decided to swap out the head while re basing the timing, this is what one of the piston tops looked like on OM606 n/a

You can see where the steam has started to eat away at carbon, both around the lip and piston top - for comparison, I had the head off another 606 in the garage with no such colorization.

__________________
David


1996 Mercedes S124 E300TD - 129k - rolling restoration project -

1998 Mercedes W210 300TD - 118k (assimilated into above vehicle)

Well, I'm doing the best I can to be an effective detective on my end. The ideas and perspective y'all offer do indeed help.

I'm quite sure it's not gummed rings. I have done a cylinder soak over the course of a week and it did not alter the compression numbers. That said, I believe the engine should fire with the compression it does have.

Water injection is not helpful because I can't get the engine to fire up. i am intrigued with the idea, but at the moment it is irrelevant.

As suggested, I flushed the IP by dropping a line from the lift pump into an acetone bottle. I removed the return line from the injection pump to the diesel filter and replaced the check valve with no hose attached. This video I shot today after having cranked a little every day for a week to flush the acetone through little by little. Some gunk did come out, perhaps I just need to run more through? Anything better than acetone? I also cleaned the delivery valves and fitted new copper washers because a few were leaking a little. Now the pump is only firing from line #5. I'm not sure what to make of it.

Here is the video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VTXZXNZG_5f96WM6sfLzFpr07mv5rRu3/view?usp=sharing

Remove the IP inspection plate and crank the engine to make sure you have movement of all the pump elements.

Rare, but the IP pump's crankshaft could have failed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4KMb8YOr6Y

__________________
78 W116 300SD 'Desert Rose' new as of 01/26/2014
79 W116 300SD 'Stormcloud' RIP 04/11/2022

What does the primer pump feel like? Builds pressure up and you hear a kind of squeal when the relief valve opens?

Statistically it is not likely that four out of five pump elements have failed. Before going further you have to make certain or I would. That the injection pump elements are seeing a fuel supply. Under at least a little pressure. One squirting element is not conclusive. This has been seen before. It always was an end one as well for some unknown reason that squirted.

I am not claiming there is not a major pump issue. Just that you have to have good indications it has fuel under some pressure available in the base of the injection pump. Before moving on.

If it meets the squeal test. Pump the primer pump to pressure and continue to generate the pressure as someone cranks the engine. This verifies if the lift pump is truly functional or not.

Perhaps you have already done something like this. If so ignore my suggestion. Yet confirm you have done at least some test that establishes you have fuel under pressure available to the pumps elements when needed.

Incidentally you are doing fine so far. You have located a real issue as to why it will not run. Moving it past the speculation point.

For what it is worth. Very little I am afraid. Usually it does not turn out to be the injection pump. Odds do increase if WVO is used at the same time. It takes very little pressure to open a delivery valve.

The car was running. Four elements did not conspire to suddenly quit functioning. So there is something else in play. Yes it could be a serious internal failure of the injection pump. Then it may not be. There are enough simple tests available to determine what the problem is .

Well the crank in the injection pump is intact. As number five is the last element it services. There have been instances of front bearing failure but usually you still get some action from several elements near the back of the pump. When you cleaned the delivery valves did you disturb the elements cylinders? If you think you may have it might be advisable to remove the side plate to make sure they are all stlll hooked up properly.


First do some form of fuel availability testing at pressure though before moving on.

Just a note on chemicals in general as well. The activity level of them is temperature dependent. Always far better to be at least 70F degrees or more. Chemical activity rapidly declines below that temperature.

I try not to learn too many things the hard way. For example a cylinder or injection pump soak at say 50F degrees might be almost non productive unless done for months at that temperature.

Still I manage this to from time to time. Painting my old ford half ton many years ago at 60 degrees ambient temperature. Then watching the cured paint falling off as the binders did not function at all at that temperature. Before the paint hardened.

No the paint was not defective. The user being myself was. I knew that before I painted the truck but thought I could get away with it. What I did not comprehend is how the curve of chemical activity versus temperature rolled off so fast.

.Some chemical component in the paint was pretty much inactivated. I would suspect almost totally by the 10F degree temperature reduction.

Try using propane to start it. A propane torch turned on ( and not lit, I didn't think I needed to say that, but.... ) and venting into the intake. Run it for a minute to fill up the intake with gas and then try to start.

__________________
Greg
2012 S350 BlueTEC 4Matic
2007 ML 320 CDI
2007 Leisure Travel Serenity
2006 Sprinter 432k
2005 E320 CDI
1998 SLK230 (teal)
1998 SLK230 (silver)
1996 E300D 99k, 30k on WVO
Previous:
1983 240D, on WVO
1982 300D, on WVO
1983 300CD, on WVO
1986 300SDL 237k, 25k on WVO (Deerslayer)
1991 350SDL 249k, 56k on WVO - Retired to a car spa in Phoenix
1983 380 SEC w/603 diesel, 8k on WVO
1996 E300D 351k, 177k on WVO

A lit propane torch in the intake will work in cold weather, just don't apply the flame to rubber intake tubes. Some industrial engines / tractors have what is called a flame plug. It is an intake air heater with a port / nozzle that burns diesel fuel to assist starting.

I'd apply propane while cranking and regulate it from there.

For worn / low compression engines, just a whiff of starting fluid will get them going just don't run the glow plugs. The key is just small puff then crank. If no start another very slightly longer puff.

Well I confirmed fuel at each delivery valve on the IP when cranking, so I put it all back together and I was able to get the thing to fire up with starting fluid after doing the atf flush of the injection pump. I was able to drive (with lots of smoke) to the gas station and fill up a fresh tank of diesel then take it for a drive up a steep canyon then back down to the house. It did great all drive as far as power/acceleration but it did smoke a lot. Then it died at a stoplight as I tried to take off in first. I was by the house and a nice fellow offered to give us a tow but I couldn't even get it to pull start so he just towed us home.

I will try the propane. I'm wondering if injector nozzles would help with starting as the injectors are more of a squirt than a spray right now, but I have trouble throwing expensive parts at a dying engine. If I can figure out an easy way to get it started I will hold on to the car. But I don't really want to take on an engine replacement right now. Any thoughts on the nozzles?

So unless I'm missing something, it seems like I'm facing a engine rebuild / possibly new pump if I wanted the car to be reliable. The car is an '82 240d with a '79 300d om617 engine. I paid 2,500 for the vehicle without the WVO kit, and have done ample work since I bought it. driveline (new center bearing and flex disks), brakes (new hoses, shoes, pads, rotors, fluid), new tie rods and cv axels, fixed oil leaks with a new waffle oil housing gasket, new oil cooler line. Completely overhauled the diesel tank when I first got it with muriatic acid. Has a new battery with autozone warranty. new glow plugs, rewired a generic ignition relay to a push button. fixed the odometer and clock and bypassed the broken instrument cluster lights switch, have fixed many other little things in the interior as well. Has newish tires. I have put on about 15,000 miles on the thing, but when I got it, the broken odometer was right around 200,000.

The WVO kit has heated hose-on-hose inside heatshrink to a second plastic tank in the trunk that is also heated with coolant. Tank has a sender and gauge. Vormax / racor filter in back, a flat plate heat exchanger under the hood, three hydraforce valves to switch and purge to D2. Also has injection line heaters and a 20amp vegtherm.

Would anybody be interested in purchasing? Car is in SLC, UT. My mechanic has spare engines and pumps and could probably hook them up for cheap as well.

It looks like you're close to the end and are giving up, sorry to hear that ~ now you mention the injectos squirt rather than spray a proper pattern, this is a very bad thing, much mire so with a low compression engine ~ I don't recall your compression test readings but over 200 # and it should start and run O.K. if not great .

__________________
-Nate
1982 240D 408,XXX miles
Ignorance is the mother of suspicion and fear is the father

I did then what I knew how to do ~ now that I know better I do better

Alright folks, it lives! Here's the update for posterity's sake in case anyone happens to be in a similar situation and is looking for insight.

Car sat for about a year until a 300D naturally aspirated showed up on craigslist for parting out. I pulled the injection pump for 100 bucks (sure beat the 1,500 price tag of a pump rebuild). After timing the IP with the drip method, I got the engine to fire up, but only after 30-40 seconds of cranking (not great). Once running there was a distinct misfire and lots of smoke, even after warming up. I put about 2 liters of H20 down the intake (a small trickle of water at high rpms) to no avail. Lots of steam but still misfired and still smoked. So, I decided to send in my injectors to https://dieselfuelinjector.guru/ just to make sure there were absolutely no issues with the fuel system at this point (I had already cleaned the fuel tank and replaced the filter at the bottom of the tank). Mark, the injector guru, said that the nozzles were cheap and one was totally frozen (probably causing the misfire). He installed used german nozzles that were in good condition and balanced the injectors. After getting the rebuilt injectors back, I installed a clear hose from the filter to the IP to be able to check for air intrusion. Purged the hardlines, ran my glow plugs for 30 seconds (they are on a push button with a burly ignition solenoid), and the damn thing started right up, even in cold weather (SLC, UT) without the block heater. It is firing up after 1-2 seconds of cranking, just like it should! However, the exhaust was still smoking. I decided to give the water injection another try now that I had a solid fuel system. After running 2 liters of water down the intake (again), the smoke is almost entirely gone. Most of the smoke cleared up after the first liter but I did another just for good measure.

Also, I didn't know the condition of the original IP or cylinder compression #s when I bought the car. It's possible a lot of the damage was already done before I twin-tanked the car, as the stock tank when I purchased ended up having WVO right in it and sat for 5-7 years. I drove about 300 miles like this before I realized what was happening. The strainer under the tank was totally blocking fuel and I found 1" of rusty oily sludge at the bottom of the tank. Perhaps those miles caused some of the damage to the fuel system.

So the lessons I've learned are:

- if your engine has minimum to low compression (one cylinder was reading 180psi!), it absolutely must have a strong IP and good injectors, but it absolutely can start right up. If its not starting right up, there are other issues besides low compression.
- water injection to decarbonize the combustion chamber resulted in much less smoke out the tailpipe. Installing a system to be able to do water injection periodically on the fly as noted in previous posts is probably a good idea, especially in a WVO or WMO system that could accumulate unburnt fuel deposits if the injectors are wearing. This can happen even with religious purge times and no fuel mixing.
- cranking no-start- my first response to this was to refresh the charging/starting circuit with new grounds, heavy gauge power wires, and replace the starter. This was probably wholly unnecessary as my primary issue was fuel related.
- if you are running WVO or WMO and are starting to have longer cranking times, send your injectors in for a rebuild before they cause unburnt fuel residue to buildup in the combustion chamber and cause damage that will result in low compression.
- If you just bought the car and it had been sitting previously or had an unknown history, pull the fuel tank and clean it before soaking your fuel in a potentially dirty tank that can cause IP issues down the line. I had ignorantly assumed the fuel filters would clean out any impurities in the tank and keep the IP clean- this was not the case.
- This one is still a bit of a mystery for me as I hear much conflicting circumstantial evidence, but one potential conclusion to all this is that settling and filtering WVO is not enough. It must be dewatered somehow, and an onboard de-watering filter like my vormax was not enough. Like I said, hard to know though with so many variables like unknown engine history.

I am curious what my compression numbers are now after doing the water injection... If I do another WVO conversion I will likely do a compression test before the conversion to get a baseline reading.

WD 40 will not damage the engine. Just spray directly into the intake while cranking. It will work if you have good compression but the fuel delivery is failing. Or you can use it to prime your injection pump.

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.