Steering Wheel Frozen/Power Steering Pump Fail???

[johnbob]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here and also new to old diesels. I should probably preface this by saying that I'm not a car guy and never have been. I'm pretty handy in general and can usually build/fix/figure out most things but for some reason or another I've always avoided car stuff. Anyway, I've finally jumped into the deep end and bought a 1981 300d (w123) non-turbo. I've already learned a ton, mostly from Youtube, this forum and other forums (thanks to everyone who posts, helps, etc.). I've been having fun working on it, but as expected, I've also had some super frustrating moments so having these forums has been an incredible resource.

I've already done a bunch of little things to the car but this weekend's project did not go so well and I was wondering if any of you had some suggestions or advice.

My power steering pump was leaking so I decided I would remove it and overhaul it. I purchased a reseal kit but I eventually realized I had purchased the wrong one. Before I realized I bought the wrong kit, I thought I resealed it, put it all back together and reinstalled the pump only to find that the pump leaked worse than ever. The power steering fluid was literally pouring out of the front seal. Rapidly. It was an all day affair and now it was late into the night so I decided to drive home (was working on it at a friend's place) until I figured out my next move and I also needed to order the correct parts. I know driving it with literally no power steering fluid would be a bad idea but I lived close and I figured I had already been driving it with very little amount of power steering fluid already so it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Here's where it gets weird.....

So, after putting everything back together and watching all the fluid pour out, I started the car and although it fired up effortlessly, I could no longer turn the steering wheel left or right. It was frozen. While I was pouring in the steering fluid I had a friend turn the wheel left and right to remove the air from the pump and it was working fine but as soon as all the fluid leaked out it would no longer work at all. Is that normal? Obviously, I know that power steering fluid is needed for it to steer correctly but would it completely freeze up like that? As stated above, I'm not a car guy so this might be an incredibly stupid question. Every car I've owned, including this one, was still able to turn when I was low on steering fluid. It would make a lot of noise and maybe be difficult to turn but it would still turn. Is this the difference between being low on fluid and being completely depleted of fluid? Or is something else happening? If I successfully reseal my pump, stop the leak and refill the fluid will I be able to turn left and right again? I'm assuming that's the case since the car suddenly stopped steering right after I "fixed" my steering pump, unsuccessfully.

I know I'm new here but I would really appreciate any thoughts, suggestions or help. Thanks so much!

I'm also going to post this on another forum too so sorry if you end up seeing this post in multiple places.

[Junkman]

Install a rebuilt power steering pump, fill it full of fluid, lift the front wheels off the ground and turn the steering wheel lock to lock. The engine should not be started during this because you don't know the condition of the steering box. The system should bleed. Wheels lifted reduce the effort required until the power steering becomes functional.

You may want to begin by lifting the wheels and turning the steering wheel. There should be no binding. Do not force the steering wheel. Simply turn it and if it turns smoothly, fill the remanufactured PS pump after it is installed.

FWIW, these old steering systems are essentially mechanical systems with a hydraulic assist. They do need lubrication and you do not know what damage if any was done to the steering box.

[97 SL320]

Need more info:

Where the front wheels on the ground or elevated?

You can't turn the steering wheel at all or just slightly before it " locks up " ?

Have you ever driven a car with manual ( non power assist ) steering?

[marco5]

Sounds like you seized up the steering box. Never ever run these cars without any fluid, on any system. There's so many bearings inside the steering box. You should have filled up before driving, pull over, fill with ATF, pull over, fill with ATF, pull over, fill with ATF etc until you are home.

It would have saved your steering box. I'd source a good used one now, you can probably find one without play for $100-150

[okyoureabeast]

Sounds like a full power steering rebuild is in your immediate future. Do your houses and steering coupler whole you're on there.

Carsteering.com has our boxes and pumps for a very affordable price. They also include a return shipping label so what you see is what you pay.

Live and learn!

[hercules]

Frozen?? If there is no assist,and on ground,sitting still,takes a bear to turn.
I mean very hard. No reason for box to be damaged.
If pump can be turned easy will most likely be ok too.
Note,Two different front seals.Diff out side dia. Inner seals may be correct.
You added fluid system worked. Stop the leak!

[Clemson88]

Originally Posted by marco5

Sounds like you seized up the steering box. Never ever run these cars without any fluid, on any system. There's so many bearings inside the steering box. You should have filled up before driving, pull over, fill with ATF, pull over, fill with ATF, pull over, fill with ATF etc until you are home.

It would have saved your steering box. I'd source a good used one now, you can probably find one without play for $100-150

Yep, the gear is locked.

[97 SL320]

Originally Posted by marco5

Sounds like you seized up the steering box. Never ever run these cars without any fluid, on any system. There's so many bearings inside the steering box. You should have filled up before driving, pull over, fill with ATF, pull over, fill with ATF, pull over, fill with ATF etc until you are home.

Not true.

Originally Posted by Clemson88

Yep, the gear is locked.

Not true.


A power steering box won't be affected by loss of fluid as there is always something left over and it would take 10's of thousands to do any damage.

Originally Posted by hercules

Frozen?? If there is no assist,and on ground,sitting still,takes a bear to turn.
I mean very hard. No reason for box to be damaged.
If pump can be turned easy will most likely be ok too.
Note,Two different front seals.Diff out side dia. Inner seals may be correct.
You added fluid system worked. Stop the leak!

True.

[Junkman]

At this point, he has no idea what condition the box is in. He does know that the PS pump is leaking and that he tried to rebuild it. He can either try rebuilding again or install an already rebuilt or even a known good used unit.

The steering wheel should turn if the front wheels are lifted. No need to source or rebuild the steering box until it has been determined that the one currently installed is messed up. The initial bleeding should be performed by turning the steering wheel lock to lock WITH THE FRONT WHEELS LIFTED. Attempting to bleed with the wheels on the ground can put too much stress on the box and deform some of the internal parts that contact each other.

[mytimeyet]

and the key turned to the run position to unlock the column of course.

[marco5]

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

Quote:
Originally Posted by marco5 View Post
Sounds like you seized up the steering box. Never ever run these cars without any fluid, on any system. There's so many bearings inside the steering box. You should have filled up before driving, pull over, fill with ATF, pull over, fill with ATF, pull over, fill with ATF etc until you are home.

Not true.

There's always something left over? Right. He JUST said that it was shooting out of the power steering, not a slight leak. If he ran and drove with no power steering fluid in the box or pump, he has done permanent damage. Any system being run dry will cause damage.

I find it shocking that some members here don't realize that not having fluid causes in a system (power steering, oil or transmission) causes permanent damage to bearings. I mean I know everyone DIY skill is different but jeez.

[Clemson88]

Originally Posted by marco5

There's always something left over? Right. He JUST said that it was shooting out of the power steering, not a slight leak. If he ran and drove with no power steering fluid in the box or pump, he has done permanent damage. Any system being run dry will cause damage.

I find it shocking that some members here don't realize that not having fluid causes in a system (power steering, oil or transmission) causes permanent damage to bearings. I mean I know everyone DIY skill is different but jeez.

I'm not about to argue. The OP will look into this and we'll know soon enough. If I ran a pump dry I'd rebuild the steering gear. There's just too much inside a box to go bad from lack of lubrication. I doubt the large ball bearings were damaged but seals, orings and other bearings would take a beating. Bearings go then shaft's seize.

[Diseasel300]

Originally Posted by marco5

There's always something left over? Right. He JUST said that it was shooting out of the power steering, not a slight leak. If he ran and drove with no power steering fluid in the box or pump, he has done permanent damage. Any system being run dry will cause damage.

I find it shocking that some members here don't realize that not having fluid causes in a system (power steering, oil or transmission) causes permanent damage to bearings. I mean I know everyone DIY skill is different but jeez.

I personally find it shocking how often non-mechanics jump on these forums and pretend to be experts.

The steering gear is the lowest point in the system. Even if the pump blew it's wad all over the engine bay, oil will remain in the steering gear itself unless it's seals were blown. The residual oil sitting in there is enough to keep it lubricated for thousands of miles.

The pump will be quickly destroyed without oil, but that should have no bearing on whether or not the steering gear operates manually. The suggestions to lift the front wheels and try moving the steering wheel will quickly and accurately diagnose if the steering gear is pooched or not. Without power assist, the steering wheel is extremely difficult to move with the wheels on the ground and the vehicle not moving.

[marco5]

Originally Posted by Diseasel300

I personally find it shocking how often non-mechanics jump on these forums and pretend to be experts.

The steering gear is the lowest point in the system. Even if the pump blew it's wad all over the engine bay, oil will remain in the steering gear itself unless it's seals were blown. The residual oil sitting in there is enough to keep it lubricated for thousands of miles.

The pump will be quickly destroyed without oil, but that should have no bearing on whether or not the steering gear operates manually. The suggestions to lift the front wheels and try moving the steering wheel will quickly and accurately diagnose if the steering gear is pooched or not. Without power assist, the steering wheel is extremely difficult to move with the wheels on the ground and the vehicle not moving.

Diseasel300 you have helped me out in the past, so I respect your opinion. You do realize, however, that the pump pushes fluid into the steering box and sucks it back right? Thus meaning that if there is a massive leak, the pump will continue to suck the fluid from the box while pushing air into the steering box until it will run dry.

Driving any distance will cause damage to: steering pump, steering box and possibly even a steering wheel (forcing it from within the car and grinding the gears) etc.

At bare minimum I'd call the dealer and schedule an appointment right away, have them order a steering pump and steering box and have them advise if they recommend a steering wheel as well. These steering wheels are locked into place with grease and you can actually bend the metal if you forced it really hard. Guys - learn to treat these cars with respect please. Jeez.

[Diseasel300]

Originally Posted by marco5

Diseasel300 you have helped me out in the past, so I respect your opinion. You do realize, however, that the pump pushes fluid into the steering box and sucks it back right? Thus meaning that if there is a massive leak, the pump will continue to suck the fluid from the box while pushing air into the steering box until it will run dry.

Driving any distance will cause damage to: steering pump, steering box and possibly even a steering wheel (forcing it from within the car and grinding the gears) etc.

At bare minimum I'd call the dealer and schedule an appointment right away, have them order a steering pump and steering box and have them advise if they recommend a steering wheel as well. These steering wheels are locked into place with grease and you can actually bend the metal if you forced it really hard. Guys - learn to treat these cars with respect please. Jeez.

There are few things I hate worse than false information being spread around as fact. The PS pump is a hydraulic pump. It creates pressure, not suction. The reservoir feeds fluid to the pump that then forces it through the system. The return fluid is under pressure and returns back to the reservoir at atmospheric pressure.

There is no possible way for the pump to "suck fluid" out of the steering gear. If the reservoir goes dry, it simply stops pumping fluid through the system. Any fluid that's left in the box will stay there until it is drained out or leaks out through failed seals.

The steering gear itself is just a power-assisted manual gearbox. As long as there is oil in there of some variety, it'll work for years or decades, just without power assist.

If you're loaded with cash and want to go to the dealer every time your car leaves a mark on the driveway, get after it. This is a DIY forum and the purpose is to help other people troubleshoot and repair their own vehicles. Spreading misinformation and frantically screaming about visiting the dealership is helping nobody.

Furthermore, to some of us, these cars are "future classics". To others, it's just an old car. To yet others, it's just a toy to tinker on. To others yet, it's just a parts sled. Judging others and the way they view their vehicles is not something we should be doing here. Some people asking for help here have no other choice but to fix what they have or go walking. Their cars just need to work, they'll never win Concours. Bear that in mind when freaking out about someone "abusing" their car.

***Gets off soapbox***