Motive Products Power Bleeder: How to avoid unpleasantness - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

5cylinder · #1 06-27-2020, 05:57 PM

You good M-B people, I come forth to share the tale of a little disaster that recently befell me and in doing so, perhaps you too, can avoid a completely preventable shower of brake fluid.

History:
Back in the year 2009, pre-most-everything as we now know it, I purchased a Motive Products Black Label Aluminum European Power Bleeder. As called for by the Factory Service Manual, each spring, from 2009 through 2019, I happily and successfully used said bleeder to flush the brake system on my 1985 300D. Life was good. Mostly. Everything is relative.

2020:
Ah 2020, THAT year.
One summer afternoon as I was carefully proceeding to do the yearly brake system flush, I was in the process of pressurizing the tank containing 1 quart of fresh brake fluid and, well...there came a moment when around 4-8 (hard to know) spots of the hose unexpectedly gave way. What mean? Well, I took an unplanned shower in fresh DOT 3 brake fluid. Nice that the fluid was fresh but otherwise, not my idea of a good time plus I had already taken my daily shower using water.

Later that day:
I proceeded to the Motive Products web site and...well, well, well. There is this: "We highly recommend replacing the hose every 3-4 years..." REALLY? There I was, spending almost 11 anything-but-blissful years, distracted with trying to survive life and ignorant that the hose would eventually go kaput on me with such fanfare. This should come as no surprise though, given that among other things, brake fluid is nasty stuff and that which it touches pays the price.

What now?
Well, the good folks at Motive Products have all of the replacement parts (i.e., hosing and clamps). I sincerely appreciate that. Replacing the hose and clamps looks rather straightforward and in the coming week or so, that will be my little project.

So, there you have it. May this information spare someone from preventable trouble.

Peace out.

Graham · #2 06-27-2020, 06:57 PM

Sounds like they need to choose a new material for their hose. Imagine if that happened to our brake hoses!

I will check my home made bleeder to see just what hose I used on that!

dieseldiehard · #3 06-27-2020, 07:49 PM

same thing happened to me, fortunately the failure occurred away from my body but brake fluid sprayed onto the hood and battery area. I quickly wiped it off then neutralized it with something I don't remember, a spray bottle of tire cleaner or something.
After looking closely I noted the vinyl hose had become stiff and saw why it cracked.
I believe there is a thread on this subject on the Forum.
Its been a while but I recall the hose clip used from the factory was crimped so it had to be cut off and not having the same part or a way to crimp it even if I had one I used a small worm-gear hose clamp.
That hose is not made to last! cheap!
I bought a new Power Bleeder anyhow. Tried to give the old one to a friend but he already had a new one too so I think it went to the trash..

engatwork · #4 06-27-2020, 08:42 PM

Thanks for the heads up. Probably time to replace the hose on mine.

vwnate1 · #5 06-27-2020, 11:55 PM

This is precisely why I never put brake fluid into it, I only use it to pressurize the system and can bleed three wheels before needing to top up the master cylinder again .

The hose is very common, the first Motive bleeder I bought only had a 12" hose on it so I replaced it .

This is a *very* good tool needed in every shop, commercial or DIY .

engatwork · #6 06-28-2020, 07:30 AM

One of best tools in shop. I've never put fluid in the bleeder bottle so that means my hose has never seen much brake fluid in it or any at all. Wonder if hose degradation due to contact with fluid was what you experienced?

5cylinder · #7 06-28-2020, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by engatwork

One of best tools in shop. I've never put fluid in the bleeder bottle so that means my hose has never seen much brake fluid in it or any at all. Wonder if hose degradation due to contact with fluid was what you experienced?

Answer: Absolutely.
Reasoning: Once the pressure was relieved (the pressurized brake fluid had squirted everywhere), I began to remove the adapter from the brake fluid reservoir. As I did this and gently moved the tank, I was shocked to see the hose just crumbling at several clamp points. It was like a rotten banana, just soft and falling apart. So, to my way of thinking, this clearly demonstrated that the brake fluid destroyed the hose over time.
Note: I have always stored the whole unit in the original box and wrapped the hose around the tank without kinds - just as Motive recommends.

As I read your posts about using the bleeder *without* fluid, vwnate1 and engatwork, I started to vaguely remember discussions of doing so on this forum many years ago. I had forgotten.
This seems to me an ideal way to go.
Why?
1. No contact between hose and brake fluid.
2. No having to clean out the tank and hose after each use.
3. Likely requiring me to use less brake fluid.
Under the current set-up, I have to acquire 2 quarts of brake fluid and use most of it. If I was using the tank dry, I suspect that I could use only 1. A financially and environmentally better course.
Heck, if I had to disconnect the adapter twice to top up the master cylinder after 2 wheels, I would consider that a good way to go.

So, if I replace the failed hose and never use brake fluid in it again, I could be set for likely never having to replace the hose again.

I appreciate all of the posts.

JHZR2 · #8 06-28-2020, 11:21 PM

Interesting. Thanks for the heads up.

I am curious how much pressure you’re using. I don’t take mine to more than 5 psi. And silly or not, I’ve stopped filling the tank, and just the reservoir. Since the invent of the quick connect tubing, the refill of the reservoir is simple for a routine flush. It’s not more than a qt, so I turkey baste out the old, fill the new (~0.5qt), then flush two brakes, refill, flush the other two.

I stopped pushing the pressure many years ago when I blew the clutch line off the reservoir on my 1991 BMW 318i. I stopped filling the reservoir when I got the newer model with the metal caps and swivels and quick disconnects.

xaliscomex · #9 06-29-2020, 12:01 AM

I was going to keep my mouth shut.

Don't leave brake fluid in the Motive brake bleeder tank for more than 3 months like I did.
What a mess!

pawoSD · #10 06-29-2020, 12:05 AM

Same thing happened to me, ended up with droplets of brake fluid sprayed on the side fender of my W203 wagon at the time. I moved with lightning speed and used about a roll of shop towels and gallon of windshield washer fluid and got it all off without any paint damage thankfully. Motive bleeder into trash. Replaced with Hazet vacuum bleeder:

Works amazingly well.

Graham · #11 06-29-2020, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHZR2

Interesting. Thanks for the heads up.

I am curious how much pressure you’re using. I don’t take mine to more than 5 psi. And silly or not, I’ve stopped filling the tank, and just the reservoir.

This works on the older cars that don't have ABS. It also saves on fluid. I always discard any fluid left in my home-made (garden sprayer) pressure bleeder. I forget what type of hose I used, but more than likely fuel hose. I should check!

On cars with ABS, like our W210, bleeding has to be done at about 30 psig. The cap nozzle is designed so that as the pressure in the bleeder is released, fluid is pushed back into the bleeder and this automatically sets the level in the reservoir.

JHZR2 · #12 06-29-2020, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

This works on the older cars that don't have ABS. It also saves on fluid. I always discard any fluid left in my home-made (garden sprayer) pressure bleeder. I forget what type of hose I used, but more than likely fuel hose. I should check!

On cars with ABS, like our W210, bleeding has to be done at about 30 psig. The cap nozzle is designed so that as the pressure in the bleeder is released, fluid is pushed back into the bleeder and this automatically sets the level in the reservoir.

Ive used the same approach on my 2011 BMW 135i which includes clutch, brakes, and some fancy hydraulics for preventing rollback on hills, and a pseudo LSD.

It also worked on my 2014 and 2015 Hondas, the latter of which is a hybrid with electro-hydraulic systems in however they engineer them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaliscomex

I was going to keep my mouth shut.

Don't leave brake fluid in the Motive brake bleeder tank for more than 3 months like I did.
What a mess!

Any fluid should always be removed immediately as it absorbs water. The downside to the motive reservoir is that any ambient air being forced in there will have the moisture at a higher partial pressure, further driving it into the fluid.

Thus why I’m a fan of just filling the reservoir. The air to brake fluid surface area is lower.

Graham · #13 06-29-2020, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHZR2

Ive used the same approach on my 2011 BMW 135i which includes clutch, brakes, and some fancy hydraulics for preventing rollback on hills, and a pseudo LSD.

It also worked on my 2014 and 2015 Hondas, the latter of which is a hybrid with electro-hydraulic systems in however they engineer them...
.

I don't know anything about those cars, but on our W210 E320, we need to flush at over 30psig so that the complete system gets flushed. It can be done at 5psig, but that apparently won't open the ABS system solenoids. I forget all the details, but did conclude that we had to go over 30 psig on that car.

There was a discussion about this previously. Some say they used 15psig or some other pressure, but that doesn't mean their system was properly flushed.

Pressure for Brake Fluid Flush w/ABS

JHZR2 · #14 06-29-2020, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

I don't know anything about those cars, but on our W210 E320, we need to flush at over 30psig so that the complete system gets flushed. It can be done at 5psig, but that apparently won't open the ABS system solenoids. I forget all the details, but did conclude that we had to go over 30 psig on that car.

There was a discussion about this previously. Some say they used 15psig or some other pressure, but that doesn't mean their system was properly flushed.

Pressure for Brake Fluid Flush w/ABS

Yikes.

Im a bit concerned... some (all?) vehicles can be bled with a scan tool that allows the solenoids to be opened and exercised. This is important for example, for bleeding systems when an ABS block is replaced.

This includes exercise of the solenoids electronically.

If youre forcing fluid past/through the solenoids by pressure versus electrical actuation, to me that's a recipe for disaster. Id want to consult with the FSM, because it sounds to me that the approach to force fluid past solenoids by pressure isnt right. But I defer to the FSM. What does it say?

Zulfiqar · #15 06-29-2020, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHZR2

Yikes.

Im a bit concerned... some (all?) vehicles can be bled with a scan tool that allows the solenoids to be opened and exercised. This is important for example, for bleeding systems when an ABS block is replaced.

This includes exercise of the solenoids electronically.

If youre forcing fluid past/through the solenoids by pressure versus electrical actuation, to me that's a recipe for disaster. Id want to consult with the FSM, because it sounds to me that the approach to force fluid past solenoids by pressure isnt right. But I defer to the FSM. What does it say?

The ABS unit is a free flowing block - unless the solenoids are commanded, thats when the "flow" to the slave cylinders is blocked and fluid is kicked back to the master cyl.

The usual bosch, visteon, denso ABS distributors Ive replaced all had a straight flush procedure first then the solenoid command one.

The unusual ones like Toyota EH (Prius, Land Cruiser etc) or MB SBC are not flushed like a regular brake setup.