I want to purchase a E350 bluetec to replace my E300D - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Bigdaddybenz · #1 09-29-2020, 05:39 PM

I have a cdi that I love but need to purchase a diesel to replace my wife's totaled E300D.

Since I am unfamiliar with this car is there anything that I should look for that may be an immediate problem? And what are problematic concerns that may cost a lot of money. I don't completely understand what a bluetec is compared to a CDI!

engatwork · #2 09-29-2020, 05:49 PM

08 or 09 E series Bluetec. They started putting the DEF exhaust system on them after 09. Other than the oil cooler gasket job I think they are good cars. I've got a customer with 09 with 145k miles that has the original gasket with no leaks.

jay_bob · #3 09-29-2020, 08:14 PM

Well since I own a 2008 E 320 Bluetec and a 2013 E 350 Bluetec let me give you some details.

You had a 1999 E 300, I also happened to have owned a 1998 E 300, these are W210 chassis, they are almost exactly identical except I think yours had the updated stereo and steering wheel buttons.

The E 320 (W211 chassis) was available in the 2007, 2008, and 2009 model years. These were considered the "facelift" W211 and had numerous improvements over the first generation (2003-2006 W211). The biggest was the elimination of the SBC (electronically controlled) brakes and they went back to normal ABS brakes, not too different than your E 300. Despite the name 'Bluetec' on the back, none of these models have a SCR in the exhaust and do not need the AdBlue (DEF) fluid.

The E350 (W212 chassis) had two generations, the first went 2010 to 2013 and the second 2014 to 2016. Again numerous updates between the generations here as well.

The W211 was designed during the height of the Daimler-Chrysler merger. (The W210 snuck out the door just as the merger was being finalized.) Going from a W210 to a W211 you will definitely see more cheap plastic parts in the interior. The W212 was designed post-merger and the MB engineers saw to it that every vestige of Chrysler was removed from the new design.

The engine used on the 2005 and 2006 W211 (called the E 320 CDI) was the OM 648 inline 6.
The engine used on the 2007-2009 W211 (called the E 320 Bluetec) was the OM 642 V6.

On the W212 first generation (2010-2013) (called the E 350 Bluetec) they continued with the OM 642 but there were some improvements over the 642s used in the W211.
The second generation W212 (2014-2016) (called the E 250 Bluetec) uses the OM 651 inline 4 cylinder twin turbo.
These have the SCR exhaust treatment and need DEF.

On my W211 it has about 215 k miles, my college age son drives it. He is working a co-op job about 55 miles each way from his apartment, and his gf lives 4 hours away, so he is driving the snot out of it. I bought it from a private seller in 2018 and it has been relatively trouble free. I did have problems with water getting into the central gateway and causing a major CAN bus shutdown that took a while to figure out. I also rebuilt the front suspension but that can be expected at 12 years/200 k miles. Prior owner had the oil cooler seals replaced.

I also own two other OM642 powered vehicles, a 2008 ML 320 CDI (older son's) and a 2014 ML 350 (wife's). I have done the oil cooler seals on the ML and it is a big job but doable by someone with average skills and the right tools. Having a copy of the factory manuals was invaluable.

On my W212 I bought it CPO from a MB dealer in the spring of 2019. One of the biggest problems with the OM 642 is that the air intake to the turbo has the return from the PCV valve stuck in right before the turbo. If the seal between the intake and the turbo is bad oil drips down on the variable intake geometry servo (aka the swirl flap motor) and causes it to short out. This takes out the engine electronics. The dealer fixed this under CPO warranty and also replaced the oil cooler seals at the same time (they had it for 5 weeks, granted it was in April when they were super short handed because of the rona).

DEF maintenance is not a huge deal, the tank needs to be purged every two years and refilled with fresh fluid. $6 hand pump from HFT and a bucket to empty it and 3 jugs of DEF from Sam's $11/ea. I top it up every couple of months. Save the empty DEF jugs, they are big enough (2.5 gallon) to hold the waste oil from an oil change and easy to transport to the oil recycling site.

The W212 is covered by the consent decree and lawsuit being discussed on the board right now. I should get a new exhaust system, extended warranty, and several thousand dollars in compensation when the settlement goes through. I have heard of people having trouble with the SCR system, the consent decree looks to cover this system for an extended period of time.

If you click on my name it takes you to a page where you can search for threads I have created. There are several threads I started about issues with the W211 (and several for the W210 as well).

Feel free to ask more questions, I have plenty to share!

Bigdaddybenz · #4 10-04-2020, 11:07 AM

I apologize for my delayed response as I have worked many hours this week. This is very informative and I appreciate the effort that was put into the responses as my wife's 1999 E300D was totaled. I found a 2007 E Class Bluetec with 130,000 miles that I really like to buy. It seems to be in excellent shape but I am leary about the oil cooler seals because initially I won't have the extra money to address that issue. Is there a way to tell if the oil cooler seals have been changed and if not where should I look for oil leakage that would indicate that they do need to be changed? Is there anything else that you guys can think of that I should check before purchasing this vehicle? After arguing with the insurance adjusters supervisor then manager they gave us just under $6,000.00 which is a far cry from the $2800.00 they initially offered. The guy that totaled my wife's car pulled a hit and run and was dumb enough to walk back to the scene of the accident to argue his position. He was arrested for no license, no insurance, leaving the scene of an accident and something else. My wife loved that car, it had a new cylinder head, fuel lines, radiator, water pump, etc...... Thank you for sharing this wealth of knowledge!

paul roberts · #5 10-04-2020, 02:10 PM

IMO, since diesel fuel isn't cheap anymore, the 642s aren't low maintenance and reliable like the older ones, I see no benefit to owning one. We've done countless oil cooler seals, timing chains, DPFs and add blue heaters, etc. my customers usually go on and on about the great fuel economy, but when I show them their annual repairs compared to the gas counterparts, they have a different tune. From what I've seen go in and out of my shop doors, their gas counterpart's cost per mile is way less. I'm not a big 642 fan. IMO, I think that they're a disaster.

jay_bob · #6 10-04-2020, 08:28 PM

I don't know about the fuel prices in WA but in the southeast US we are under $2/gallon for regular and diesel. Premium about $2.25 ish, which is what all gas powered MBs require. Combined with the approximately 30% fuel economy bonus it does make a difference if you drive a lot.

I wonder if the troubles with the AdBlue tank stem from not purging the tank every two years as recommended by MB. I did that recently to both my AdBlue vehicles. Piece of cake on the sedan, the tank is in the trunk and it took about 15 minutes with a hand pump. On the ML you have to take off the right rear tire and the fender liner to get to the tank filler neck connection so you can suck it out from there. That was about a 2 hour job.

As to OPs question about the oil cooler seals, the leak will manifest itself by dripping out a drain hole at the bell housing. If you get underneath and see a bunch of oil at the transmission/engine junction that is a probable sign.

Although there is another oil leak on the 642 but fortunately it is relatively easy to repair. It is the oil filter canister to head connection and the gasket in there gets tired and starts leaking. Only a few parts have to come off the front, the gasket is a few bucks at MB, and it takes about an hour to change out. And another hour to clean all the crap off the front of the engine (the belt slings the oil all over the place and you get yummy crusty dirt everywhere.) The oil drippings will blow back across the bottom of the engine and make it hard to tell whether it's coming from the top. I have had to do this to both my 2008s.

I also did the oil cooler seals on my 2008 ML and lived to tell about it.

On an 07-09 W211 you won't have any of the AdBlue system. It does have a DPF. They can be removed and flushed out when they get clogged.

From the looks of the consent decree I should be getting an extended emissions warranty on my 2013 and 2014 vehicles. I actually have 18 months more on my extended CPO warranty on my 2013.

Yes there is quite a bit more to go wrong on a 642 than an OM617. But it also is dealing with a set of regulations that were not in force in the 1970s and they have to emit several orders of magnitude less pollution than a 617.

Bigdaddybenz · #7 10-04-2020, 09:23 PM

Please go into greater depth about the oil cooler seals. This is all foreign to me and every Mercedes I ever owned the ool cooler was located as part of the radiator. I do not understand the concept of an oil cooler having anything to do with the bell housing area. Also, I don't know what DEF is and what exactly you have to do to the fuel tank and why?....I have literally owned at least 20 Mercedes diesels in my life from early 115 chassis up to the CDI that I have now. .
.... Thanks guys, I need to get educated on this before I decide to buy this car!!

83w126 · #8 10-04-2020, 10:03 PM

Do all of the OM642 cars have the 722.9 transmission? The difference in conductor plate replacement cost over the 722.6 is a pretty large expense ($1700 and must be done by the dealer vs $175 plus the cost of a normal fluid change if you do it yourself).

jay_bob · #9 10-05-2020, 08:57 AM

Oil Cooler Seals: The oil cooler on the OM642 is not a radiator-style cooler like in the previous engines. The oil cooler sits in the bottom of the V between the cylinders and the oil gets cooled by the engine coolant. There are two $5 gaskets underneath the oil cooler that fail. The original gaskets are orange. The replacements are purple. They changed the material. Changing the gaskets themselves is easy. Getting to them is the hard part.
A journey into the the infamous Om642 oil cooler leak!

I did this, my story begins on page 4. But read from the beginning as the original poster has lots of photos and insight.

If you have decent mechanical skills and the right tools (good set of e-torx sockets and the special fuel line wrench) you can do this job in a long weekend. It is not nearly as daunting as I thought it would be.

The reference to the bell housing has to do with the fact that there is a drain hole in the area of the oil cooler that drains down near the bell housing/engine block junction. Thus leaking oil tends to show up there if the oil cooler seals are bad.

DEF is short for Diesel Exhaust Fluid. It is basically ammonia in deionized water. My grandma used to clean her house with ammonia so the smell makes me think of my grandma

The process is called Selective Catalytic Reduction or SCR for short. It reduces the oxides of nitrogen present in the exhaust. https://www.dieselforum.org/about-clean-diesel/what-is-scr

The fluid is generic (you don't need to buy the special MB branded fluid, any fluid that is compliant with ISO 22241 is acceptable). Peak BlueDef is available at Sam's, Walmart, and most auto parts stores.

It goes in a separate tank, not the fuel tank. On the sedans (for sure on 2013, not sure on the other years) the tank is in the trunk so you get no spare tire (the car has MOe run flat tires). The SUVs (again I speak of 2014 because that is what I have) have a tank above the rear axle and you fill it through a second port behind the fuel door.

The transmission on W211:
Pre-facelift (2003-2006, including the CDI) use a 722.6 which is the same transmission used in the 1997+ W210s. This transmission is electronically controlled. The computer is external to the transmission. On 210s it is in the relay box on the passenger side of the engine bay. Not sure where they put it on the CDIs. The transmission has solenoids and sensors that communicate with the computer. They are placed in an assembly known as a 'conductor plate' to make it modular and easy to install. The conductor plate sits on top of the valve body. On the 722.6 the conductor plate has no intelligence, there are I believe 13 wires back to the computer, each solenoid and sensor is individually wired to the computer.
Post facelift (2007-2009 including the Bluetecs) use a 722.9 which is also the transmission they use on the first generation W212 (up to 2013 sedans) and W166 (up to 2014 SUVs). The conductor plate on the 722.9 has integrated electronics and no separate transmission computer elsewhere in the car. The electronics in the conductor plate have to be coded to match the other computers in the car and this can only be done by the dealership. This job is just south of $2k as the other poster mentioned.

tjts1 · #10 10-05-2020, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul roberts

IMO, since diesel fuel isn't cheap anymore, the 642s aren't low maintenance and reliable like the older ones, I see no benefit to owning one. We've done countless oil cooler seals, timing chains, DPFs and add blue heaters, etc. my customers usually go on and on about the great fuel economy, but when I show them their annual repairs compared to the gas counterparts, they have a different tune. From what I've seen go in and out of my shop doors, their gas counterpart's cost per mile is way less. I'm not a big 642 fan. IMO, I think that they're a disaster.

+1
I see no benefit to the W211 diesels. Not only is diesel fuel more expensive but the m112 V6 and m113 V8 are far more reliable and cheaper to maintain. And they both run in cheap 87 octane. You buy an om642 because because you want an om642, not for any practical reason. If you're going to put the money into an exotic engine, it might as well be something fast like an m113k.

Bigdaddybenz · #11 10-09-2020, 06:48 PM

I am going tomorrow to look at a 2008 e350 bluetec
It has 185,000 miles. Let me know what I should look for in a car with that kind of miles!

Thanks guys

jay_bob · #12 10-09-2020, 09:23 PM

That's about the mileage that I picked up my 2008

Definitely take a diagnostic reader. This is how I figured out the VGS (transmission speed sensors) had stored fault codes and would be needing a new VGS soon. I was able to knock $2k off the price when I told the seller about this.

BTW I paid $9k for mine in spring of 2018

Have a good look at front suspension, it's probably ready for a refresh so plan on that

Ask for records, see if the oil cooler seals have been done.

Look in the cup holder, there should be a silver or black device a little bigger than a candy bar behind the cup holders that lights up blue. This is your Bluetooth adapter for pairing your phone. It only supports handsfree profile (phone calls), not A2DP (streaming).

Check the motor mounts, if it's shaky plan on new mounts, $250 for the dealer ones, don't buy the off brand ones, you'll be doing it again in a year.

Bring a T20 and ask if you can remove the panel below the steering wheel. On the lid of this panel is the ZGW (central gateway) which is the nerve center of the car. I had water get into mine and caused all manner of CAN bus mayhem. Check for any signs of water. But don't pull the plugs as it will set a bunch of codes for no-communications with the other computers in the car.

Do the same thing in the left rear of the trunk where the rear SAM is. Make sure that is totally dry.

Check the front of the engine, if it's oil covered plan on replacing that oil filter tower gasket (cheap and fairly easy).

Bigdaddybenz · #13 10-11-2020, 12:25 PM

So, the bluetec turned out to be in poor shape, the oil cooler seals were leaking and the car was poorly maintained so I passed. I found an E320 CDI, with 142.000 miles for $5.500. I test drove it, something was a little off, like a valve tap upon heavy acceleration and maybe the transmission but for that price I'd be willing to dump some money into it, Unlike my CDI, this car has heated/cooling massage front seats and the center console is different, it is a 2 piece split compartment and it has the Bluetooth thing for your phone. The front seats are rough but the guy will have them reupholstered if I buy it. And the body is mint!

Your thought?

83w126 · #14 10-11-2020, 01:06 PM

A rebuilt transmission is about $3,750 installed, and engine issues could cost as much as $3,500 for a new (used) engine. That sounds like a big risk for $5,500. I'd personally rather find some non ripped seats and some money taken off the price than an 'I'm selling it anyway so who cares" quality upholstery job.

jay_bob · #15 10-14-2020, 01:17 PM

I agree you need to be searching for better examples. Don’t know your budget but the best place to find decent examples is the MB dealer network. MBUSA has a web site for searching CPOs and normal pre-owned.

https://www.mbusa.com/en/cpo/inventory

There is a check box for ‘search all pre-owned’ at dealers.

Or at least a high end resale lot specializing in MBs. I know there are several in Atlanta.

Or try the MBCA classifieds. https://www.mbca.org/classifieds

Found a CDI in FL https://www.mbca.org/classified-ad/2006-E320-CDI-7408178

Craigslist and auto trader are going to find you the turds.

So interesting find: I went to the MBUSA site and it appears they have either no CPOs with diesel, or else they have removed any diesels from the CPO program...several of the results are within the year limit (6 MY back) or the mile limit (75k iirc) but aren’t listing as CPO. Maybe has something to do with the consent decree and litigation on the Bluetecs. Sad if that’s the case.

I bought 7 MBs so far:
1983 240D - eBay to upstate SC BHPH lot (total mistake)
1987 300TD - forum member in NC
1998 E300D - forum member in MD
2008 ML320 CDI - SC dealer (local dealers website)
2014 ML350 BT - NJ dealer (MBUSA website)
2008 E320 BT - MBCA classifieds from another town in SC
2013 E350 BT - AL dealer (MBUSA website)

On the out of town cars I flew out and drove them back.