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  #1  
Old 04-27-2003, 10:13 PM
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Unhappy 240D Glow Plugs Burned & Injectors Leaking

My son drove home from College Friday night and complained that his 1981 240D seemed to stumble on acceleration. I went out to take a test drive and the Glow Plug light did not light. The next morning I tested at the Glow Plug Relay with a VOM meter and discovered two glow plugs bad. (#3 & #4). When I took out the plugs to replace them the tips were burned to half their size. These plugs were less than 6 months old. I replaced them and the car started but had a bad knocking sound. I checked all the valves and then noticed that the Injectors (# 4 & # 5) were leaking at the base but not where they thread in. They were leaking actually outside the pre-chamber retaining ring. I double checked to ensure that it was not leaking from the return lines. I have pulled all the Injectors and intend to have them tested at a Diesel shop tomorrw. My question is, could bad injectors seals cause this leaking ? If not the seals, could a bad injector cause it ? I have done many searches and can't find this particular problem. Anyone have any ideas ? Thanks in advance.

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  #2  
Old 04-27-2003, 11:48 PM
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Sgoodhart,

How could have a #5 injector on a 240D?

Good idea having the injectors tested at a Diesel injection shop. If they are honest they will tell you which injectors need replacement tips if any and that all the injectors aren't bad.

When you put the injectors back in, replace all the sealing rings.

P E H
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  #3  
Old 04-28-2003, 07:54 AM
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Your right, my mistake only 4 cyl

Your right of course. I fat fingered when I was typing. There is only 4 cyl. Can a bad Injector or seal cause the leak where it is leaking ? Is there anything else I should be checking ? Thanks.
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  #4  
Old 04-28-2003, 09:09 AM
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sgoodhart,

I have no idea why your injectors are leakin, I've never seen that happen. So I suggest you take the injecters to a Diesel injection shop.

The Diesel injection shop should be able to reproduce the leak when testing your injectors because they test under pressure. They should also be also to fix the leak if they can find it.

Let us know what they find.

P E H
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  #5  
Old 04-28-2003, 10:11 AM
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Injectors Tested

I got all 4 injectors tested this morning and 3 out 4 need new nozzles. I am ordering new nozzles today. I am still stumped at the leakage which is not where the Injector screws into the head, but actually outside the ring that holds the pre-chamber in. The leakage is occuring at cyl # 3 & # 4. This is also where the two Glow Plugs were burned in half. Interesting that one injector was good and one was bad, when tested this morning. I am going to clean them, replace the nozzles, and heat shields and see what happens. It will be a few days until the parts come. I will update everyone on how it works out.
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  #6  
Old 04-28-2003, 10:18 PM
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sgoodhart,

Why didn't you have the tips replaced at the injection shop.They have the equipment to set the opening pressure of the nozzles correctly.

Is the leak Diesel fuel or coolant?

P E H
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  #7  
Old 04-29-2003, 12:16 PM
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Injector Tips

I did not have the Injector tips replaced at the shop because they were going to charge me $59.00 for each tip. I told him I could purchase an entire injector for that. They were very nice about it and said they totally understood the cost difference. I worked it out with him where I will put the new tips in and then they will calibrate and test them for me. Very good people and honest.
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  #8  
Old 04-29-2003, 12:27 PM
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Diesel fluid leak

PEH,

Sorry, I forgot to mention that the leak is Diesel fuel. I looked again last night and it is coming from a small half moon shaped opening that is right outside the bottom of the ring that holds the pre-chamber in. Actually sits right next to the ring. It is only leaking on # 3 & # 4. same place for both. Any ideas ? Thank you for your help so far. Scott
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  #9  
Old 04-29-2003, 06:35 PM
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sgoodhart,

Where did you get the injector tips for less than $59? That's about what I would expect to pay. Its a good idea to have the injectors set and tested by the Diesel shop.

I'll have to take a look at my 240D tomorrow to see if I can figure where your leak is coming from. Mine is a 115, '74 so I hope it is the same.

P E H
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  #10  
Old 04-30-2003, 09:11 AM
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Injector parts

PEH,

Thanks for taking a look. Right at this site on Fast Lane the Injector Nozzles are about $28.00. The Benz bin has them for $26.00.
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  #11  
Old 04-30-2003, 10:57 AM
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sgoodhart,

From your description of the source of leakage, you should probably see some gasses escaping there too when the car is either cranking on the starter, or running. There is a seal ring to effect a seal between the prechamber and the head, but there is no seal other than the injector nozzle face to the prechamber "nozzle plate" or "seal plate" at the bottom of the injector bore in the prechamber.

To have fuel leak out the spot you have identified there are only a few possible causes and most of them are unlikely to leak fuel alone. First, assuming the injector bodies on two of your injectors are not flawed, liquid fuel must leak out of the nozzle and go radially, past the nozzle plate or nozzle seal, then up and around the threads that hold the injector in the prechamber. This is feasible if there is no actual sealing occuring at the nozzle to prechamber nozzle plate/seal, and there is a lot of extra fuel coming out that path. That condition can arise if either the wrong seal exists there (there are two different kinds, and while I am certain the old style can be replaced with the new style, it is not clear if a new injector body and nozzle will work with the old style plate/seal), two seals have been put in on top of each other (introducing another leak path), the seal is in backwards (either type but only likely on the new seals) or there is no nozzle plate/seal there at all. Any of those conditions will also likely damage the injector nozzle and could lead to extra fuel coming out. Enough extra that the gasses from the combustion chamber and prechamber don't make the trip? I don't what quantity would be required and how that would affect normal running of the engine, but find it unlikely without some other apparent indications of something being amiss.

Another, but unlikely, scenario is that you have a ruptured injector body. Having two of these would be really unlikely, while a mistake on the nozzle plate/seal is likely to be repeated by a mechanic not knowing any better.

To get to the bottom of this, next time you take the injectors out, look into the area at the bottom of the prechamber bore that the injector body goes into, and remove any loose parts. The new seal plates are about the size of a quarter or smaller in diameter and about the same thickness, have a smooth chamfered edge surface on one side and distinct grooved surface on the other. These stay loose in the prechamber when the injector body is removed.

The old nozzle plate/seal parts are much smaller (half the diameter of the injector bore in the prechamber or so), and are not flat. They look a little like a pipe flange or top hat in cross section, with the flat top removed to provide a bore through the top hat. They are a goldish color when new, and stay that way or turn a darker color/black as they get old. The prechamber inside in the area of the injector bore is a silver metal color and should stay that way. So the old style seals look like a dark, flat donut around the hole in the prechamber bore leading to the actual prechamber. They get the top hat section jammed into that hole to the prechamber proper and they can be a bit of a chore to get out. None of the nozzle seals can be reused so you have to get them out. Others have reported here that they have gasses leaking at the location you have identified and it turned out to be a problem with these seals, usually having both installed because the mechanic did not know the old style ones had to be removed.

After all that I do not believe your problem is leakage coming from the location you have described, but leakage collecting there. I find it much more likely the return leakage connectors, which are subject to some abuse in the removal and reinstallation operations, are damaged. This can cause a leak between the hose and the nipple, or the nipple and the injector body, which would run down the injector body, possibly behind the line of sight, to the recess with the locking ring in it that holds the prechamber into the head. Another possibility is the injector body joint between the nozzle top and bottom, which is outside the prechamber and between the two large sets of flats on the injector body, is leaking. This would indicate a problem sealing between the nozzle body, the holder insert or the injector nozzle top. All more likely than a rupture, or the other scenarios without any gasses coming out.

I hope all this helps, Jim
__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Last edited by JimSmith; 04-30-2003 at 11:06 AM.
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  #12  
Old 04-30-2003, 12:36 PM
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Sgoodhart,

After the explanation from Jim, I won't bother to look at my older 240D. He seemed to have a good explanation of what could be your problem.

I never looked at injector tip prices in Fastlane. The last price I was quoted was from a local Diesel injection shop. That was about the same as the price your Diesel shop gave you.

At the $26 to $28 price, I might be more willing to replace the injector tips. Do you have an address, phone # or web site for the Benz Bin?

P E H
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  #13  
Old 04-30-2003, 10:08 PM
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Thanks

Jim,

Thank you for the very complete explaination of where the leaks could possibly be coming from. I really appreciate it. I am putting new nozzles and installing new seals in the injectors. Once they are calibrated I will install them. I am also replacing the bypass line. I'll take a good look in the prechamber as you describe when I install them. I'll let everyone know how it comes out. Hope to get to it this weekend. I thought perhaps the ruined Glow Plugs were connected with the leak but maybe just a coincidence ? Thanks again. Scott
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  #14  
Old 04-30-2003, 10:11 PM
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BenzBin Contact

PEH,

Here is the contact info for the BenzBin:

http://www.thebenzbin.com/

1-888-628-3247


Scott
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  #15  
Old 05-01-2003, 10:11 AM
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sgoodhart,

Thanks for the BenzBin web address. It looks similar to the Fastlane setup.

I like the free shipping for $50 and up orders.

How fast do they ship and from where. I get Fastlane parts in 24 hours or less with UPS ground.

P E H

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