Stranded, any suggestions for getting car started without heater in single dig temps? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

kerry · #31 01-31-2004, 11:36 AM

Way cool. I love that idea.

BoostnBenz · #32 01-31-2004, 03:09 PM

That is a pretty good idea actually, I thought of it as a short term solution to getting the car to suck in warm air but didn't have anything to run from one vehicle to another at the time. I'll go pick it up in a hour or so, I don't forsee any problem since it is so much warmer out now.

BoostnBenz · #33 01-31-2004, 07:28 PM

Well it is now home, I'm pissed off more than ever at it but it is indeed home. It started quite stubbornly in the fact I had the starter and motor running at the same time but couldn't convince it to go on its own (took about 15 seconds of turning). Well what really put the icing on the cake here is that 1 mile away from where it stranded me the CCU started rapidly clicking and shut off.

Then since my new (whaler?) thermostat is a POS the car ran 97*C all the way home, to top that off at the same time (as changing thermostat) it created a coolant leak so my bottle is probably empty now, oh no I'm not done yet, I have a marker light that keeps going on and off and it is off now, my dash is making a noise around 55mph, my two fuel injectors are still leaking fuel as well, windshield washer sprayers aren't working right, and the door panel is still off because the latch won't let the door handle on that side unlock the car.

Anybody have a sledgehammer handy? I think I may have found a use for one.

If it weren't for my good experience with the 84 300D....

Anyway thanks for all the ideas, hopefully I'll never have to use them but if this happens again in the middle of nowhere I'll have to try something like this. I guess when it is under 10* outside I'll drive it at 5pm then again at 7pm so it is still warm enough for 10pm, either that or park it!

rsl007 · #34 01-31-2004, 07:28 PM

Conventional motor oil is a real enemy in cold. Just put some 5-30 into the freezer and it becomes very hard and thick. Synthetic stays absolutely fluid. In real cold weather, no question, synthetic will allow the motor to spin.

BoostnBenz · #35 01-31-2004, 07:34 PM

I use Mobil 1 SuperSyn 15w50 and it wasn't very fluid like! I'm not impressed with it about now, I think it'll be Amsoil next winter or at least drop the grade to 10w30 or so. While a dino oil would probably be worse this stuff was pumping very poorly. Anything which holds pressure on the gauge a minute later after turning the motor isn't anywhere near fluid enough.

kerry · #36 01-31-2004, 08:00 PM

Before I replaced the loop with pencil type plugs in my 77 300d, I would routinely have to keep the starter engaged for about 10 seconds to get it to start below about 15 degrees. In the manual, it explicitly states that you should do this to get it started in the cold so don't be too concerned about it.

rsl007 · #37 01-31-2004, 08:04 PM

I guess real life situations is different from lab testing. But I did put regular oil and synthetic into two test-tubes in the freezer overnight. The temp was about 5 degrees F. The regular 5/30 was almost solid and wouldn't pour at all, while Mobile 1 immediately poured out. Take 6-8 quarts of almost solid oil, from low temp, and an engine just cannot turn over fast if at all. And, you know, the diesel engine needs a good spin to start.
And block heaters do not work fast...if frozen, an engine has to be on one for 4-6 hours to help warm things up, but that dosn't help an frozen battery.
I know it was said already, but to repeat, a good alternative to a block heater is a 100W bulb in the engine compartment with the hood closed as best as possible. The heat generated does keep the battery and engine warm. And don't forget the anti-gel.

fj bertrand · #38 01-31-2004, 08:16 PM

disconnect the glow plug relay, and while cranking the engine hit it with smelling salts (ether)for no more than 2 seconds.

rsl007 · #39 01-31-2004, 08:21 PM

I saw that the air temperature in Grand Forks, North Dakota, was 41 degrees below zero yesterday. Any one know how they manage their engines at that temp. Do they leave the diesels running all night? Would an idleing engine still freeze up at that temp?

whunter · #40 01-31-2004, 09:44 PM

RE: I saw that the air temperature in Grand Forks, North Dakota, was 41 degrees below zero yesterday. Any one know how they manage their engines at that temp.
They leave the diesels running all night, block heater with a tarp over the engine compartment or keep it in a heated garage.
A running engine will not freeze up at that temp, but the fuel can jell and starve it dead.
The only 240D with a Mack truck stack, came from there, he would shovel snow to fill in the sides and rear, then leave it run all week end.

leathermang · #41 02-01-2004, 05:17 AM

" disconnect the glow plug relay, and while cranking the engine hit it with smelling salts (ether)for no more than 2 seconds."

fj bertrand,
You are correct. But many on this forum have an irrational fear and wild imaginations which are invoked by the slightest hint of this " explosive " product....
And this exists even after JimSmith's excellent answer a while back. When they won't believe JimSmith I try to just avoid the stress of seeing the crazy things that are posted by avoiding the thread in the future......

whunter · #42 02-01-2004, 08:32 AM

Hello leathermang
Note: smelling salts are spirit of ammonia.
#A. I am a professional mechanic.
#B. My average use of ether = three cans per year; two are used to clean special parts.
#C. My personal vehicle repair average = 980 too 1700 vehicles per year.

I have used ether on my 300SD twice, following is the description.
Note: My air intake system is OEM.
#1. Open the hood.
#2. Look at the front of the radiator.
#3. Locate the air intake pick-up tube.
#4. Give the air intake pick-up tube a one second shot of ether.
#5. Walk around, get in and start the engine.

You will please note that this way; it is almost impossible to feed excess ether to the engine, the excess will run back out, the weak ether vapor will last only a couple of revolutions.
This will not strip the cylinders.
When done correctly; it would not damage a diesel.
Ether is only to boost start the engine, not run the engine.
Ether vapor is what the engine wants; not liquid ether.
I have considered making a video of how to use ether correctly on a diesel, there are several videos on the market.

Hello leathermang
Please direct me to JimSmith's excellent answer a while back.

dabenz · #43 02-01-2004, 10:56 AM

BoostnBenz, glad you got it home. Give the car a chance as you're still on the lower and colder end of the learning curve. Dollars to donuts it won't ever happen you again and you'll also be able to help somebody else in the future.

rsl007 and whunter, the plot of temperatures previous to this post is for Grand Forks, ND. Yes, it's nice to have a heated garage, but most folks don't for the semi-trucks. You aren't going to make a profit by running the engine at home, so there are electric engine block heaters and electric heaters for the fuel/water separators. Webasto is also gaining popularity, as you can tap into the Artic Fox (coolant line run through fuel tank). Either way the truck gets checked every eight hours or so and if all isn't well then we bite the bullet and start the engine and run at high idle (1 gal/hr). And #1 fuel only at these temperatures for semi, pickup, or car. Diesel cars very rare around here. It's all the other stuff that creates problems, like batteries, clutch actuator, transmission, and rear end fluids, and anything that is greased or oiled. Grand Forks city buses ran with the door open Friday because the hydraulic actuators failed. How'd you like to be a bus driver in -40F?

whunter, your directions should be pasted to every can of starting fluid. The folks that get into trouble are those who go 6 seconds on the second try. Sometimes they get a third try, sometimes not.

Attached is a pic of a college student doing the boiling water trick. Sounds like Rice Krispies when the impurities get blown out of the molecular chain as the water flash-freezes. Notice that the college student is 1) downwind and 2) not wearing a hat. Jeepers.

leathermang · #44 02-01-2004, 11:12 AM

WHunter,
Thanks for sharing that....Some of the other ' horror' stories involved other brand engines, very different types on putting the 'ether' into the system... direct injection compared to our precombustion chamber , etc....
If anyone is concerned about the ' glow plug ' item then fj bertrand's method takes that out of the equation...
But the tiny amount of BTU's available in your method ( which is mine also ) and the tiny area of the rings which might be exposed to any detonation type explosion.... and the extreme durability of our engines piston design..
Most of the answers on cold starting don't understand where the problem exists... that is in the actual bore and intake air temperature .... if it is cold then 50 degrees of difference in its temperature can make all the difference in a ' compression ignition' situation. And the ether ( evaporated starting fluid ) can make up what is needed to get it going long enough for it to sustain itself.... sometimes this might be from the actual heat added.. but might sometimes be the ability to turn the engine over fast enough to get some other piston bore to fire from simple compression heat.
The post by JimSmith may take me a while to find.. but I think he,tirebiter and a really good treatise by _______________, more recently may be easier to find....

leathermang · #45 02-01-2004, 11:20 AM

Whunter, Just for you ....
"I think before we take this too seriously ("dogma" just sounds way to serious) we should try to frame the argument so we can sort the answers into categories that make sense. Nature is not solely a black and white event, there are shades of gray and even colors. So don't expect the answers to questions to be black and white all the time.

First, a single molecule of ether that gets sucked into the engine is not going to cause it to blow up. You can do that over and over, all day long and it won't damage anything. Matter of fact, two won't either. So it is not ether itself that is bad for Diesel engines, it is more likely that ether in the hands of morons is bad for Diesel engines. Just like any other standard maintenance operation, if you do it wrong you can hurt yourself and ruin the engine, brakes, etc.

Lets be a little more broad minded about this issue and see where we would be if we applied the same logic to the rest of the stuff we commonly add to the engine. For example, we add stuff like gasoline and kerosene and other chemicals to the Diesel fuel (some pretty loosely defined stuff, by the way) to prevent it from becoming solid - is it ok to run the engine on these items instead of Diesel fuel? Could they destroy the engine? Yes, but do we ban them from the fuel tank because of that? No, we use some judgement knowing they are not Diesel fuel, follow the manufacturers instructions, or trust the kid at the station did.

I am not sure, but I think the energy content of Diesel fuel, being a liquid at room temperature and wanting to be a solid at below zero Fahrenheit (thus the additives needed) is probably greater than the same volume of ether, as a gas at these temperatures. So, I find it hard to comprehend how a small quantity of ether is going to destroy something as robust as an MB Diesel engine.

That said, and I believe you can safely pass a whif of ether across the air intake while cranking, I agree that if your Diesel does not start like the manufacturer intended, you should fix it. Who wants to lift the hood and have another person tagging along to help you get your car started all the time? And if it is really cold where you live or your battery dies all of the sudden, if you have a manual transmission unit you can "pop" start it as my daughter says. And you can do this by yourself if you think ahead a little and park aimed down a slope with enough room to just coast out of the spot. So, lets get a rant going on the use of automatic transmissions with Diesel engines. They even cause people to put ether in the intake upon occasion! So they have to be worse than ether alone!

I hope this helps. Jim "
JimSmith