Had my injectors tested. Need input.
 

I had the injectors from my 87 300D tested at a local diesel shop (authorized Bosch dealer) and here are the results:

1 1880 bad pattern
2 2000 good pattern
3 1900 good pattern
4 1900 good pattern
5 2000 good pattern
6 2100 decent pattern

The shop is offering to rebuild my injectors for $60 each. I know I can get rebuilts online for about $45 but I've heard of some bad experiences with Bosch rebuilts. Should I just pay more and have this shop rebuild them for me or are the cheaper ones from the internet not that bad? Would you rebuild all 6 or just #1 and #6?

For the $90 price differential you're well on your way to buying something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43991&item=2481345302&rd=1
and doing your own pop testing and adjustment. The seller is fairly well known in the MB MOG community.

Thanks for the link. Do you own that kind of tester or know anyone who uses it and likes it? How easy is it to adjust the pop pressure?

Anyhow, pop pressure doesn't seem to be my main problem. These are most likely original injectors and they're probably getting worn out. Prior to this test I've done 3 diesel purges, ran a bunch of fuel additives through the tank, and lately I've been using B05 so I'm thinking the bad spray pattern is caused by wear, not by dirt. That's why I'm inclined to rebuild them but I'm not sure if I should go with this shop or buy rebuilt injectors online.

Having them rebuilt will allow for them to be balanced also, something you won't get off the shelf.

If you're considering having the local shop rebuild them ( and sombody correct me on this, if these injectors don't have this part ) but most bosch injectors have a part in it called a pintle and it's usually not included in the rebuild price if theyfind a bad one at the local guys, and they'll usually tag an extra $80 on for each bad pintle. You would want to find out about that ahead of time .

The pintles are part of the nozzle and new nozzles should be part of any rebuild.

Why not just buy new nozzles online (~ $30 ea.) AND a pop tester (can you tell I like tools?!). You've saved $180 over a local rebuild, which pretty much pays for a tester.

The injector unscrews and you replace the nozzle, clean up the parts and essentially that's a rebuild. Set the pop pressures (within about 3-5 bar range) with your almost FREE pop tester and then loan it to your friends (US) and enjoy newfound popularity? ;)

I ordered the injector tester from eBay over a week ago and am expecting it anytime. My main concerns with it were quality and maintainability. He said replacement parts are available and it is similar in quality to the bosch tool. We will see. He said one of the adapters with it will fit a 617 injector.

I am not sure that I will be able to get economical parts for injectors anyway.

I have a buddy here locally that works on some Mercedes diesels for a living. He said that bad injectors are rare and he has never seen a failed injector pump.

I thought about building an injection test bench. Bolt an injection pump to a frame and spin it with an electric motor. Plumb in a gauge and spray fuel.

because I prefer to drive my mb, then work on it, I'd just order them from here, and replace them all. then save the good one's for back up, stored in a oil bag so they don't rust.

Check this site out............ http://injectors.150m.com/

First, the $60 each is a GOOD price if they are balanced (something that NONE of the "rebuilt" ones from the online parts sources will be.)

Second, the $45 dollar price is not real. You pay a $15 core charge on top of that. No one that I know (including myself) has ever received their $'s back for the core charge. Even Rusty keeps saying "I'll get back to you on that" when I ask where to send for the cores for refund, then never gets back. Have gone through this cycle three times with him with two customers injectors. He's probably the most honest of the sellers too (besides Phil at Fastlane anyway), so it's not just the seller.

Others on this forum have sent injectors back to "somewhere" for their core charge refund and have never seen a dime back (82-300TD comes to mind.)

So....., the REAL cost of the online rebuilts is...., $60. Getting them done locally for the same price where you can take them back and complain and where they will BALANCE them (make sure this is included) is WAY ahead AFAIC.

Make sure they do use NEW injector nozzles (the one part they SHOULD be using new and all genuine "rebuilds" will come with - yes, includes pintles, they are matched as a set) and make sure they are GERMAN or (G*d forbid) FRENCH and NOT the India made ones (no offense to any Indian members, except maybe the ones I personally know, but they know I'm an offensive person anyway!)

I've almost given up on doing injectors for lack of finding good parts. One out of five of the India nozzles have been useable and most of the parts sellers only have those now.

Most people do prefer driving to maintenance or walking.

There is far more to it than that.

Your post sounds a little like peeing on people from high places.

I just replaced all 4 of my injectors in my attempts to get rid of my nailing problem. I choose to go to the local NAPA that specialized in European parts, at 59.00 a pop for factory rebuilds I did pay a premium over the 46.00 internet specials. GET BOSCH ONLY! Took one day for them to get them in, no shipping charge. I did have to pay a 15.00 core but when you stand in front of the sales person with 4 cores and say you want your money back, you get it. I had one of the injectors leak at the seal between the halfs, they ordered a new one and did a return on the bad one to satisify the warranty.

The 240D has never run so good for me. Nailing gone, heavy smoke at start-up gone, loads more power, smoother idle. The first set lasted 200k, I bet I get that again.

Diesel Addict,

Check your PM.

The rebuilt injectors available from most of the suppliers are not balanced closely enough. They are probably better than what is currently in the car, but they can be better.

What does balanced mean? Is it the same as setting the pop pressure?

Sooty Taillight, thanks for the injector link. Those injectors look great to me! I'm seriously considering them.

I'm surprised that no one here has been able to get core refunds for injectors. I never had a problem getting core refunds for my alternator and starter.

I also emailed the injector tester seller and he said he doesn't know if it will fit 603 and 617 injectors and there's no documentation. Sounds to me like a cheap product.

The only draw back on the "Colorado Gold" is that they do not offer injectors for 1987 OM603 for either D or SDL. They do offer oddly for the 1986 SDL.

I emailed an inquiry as to why, and the response I got back was some mummbling about India and wouldn't sell them because!

I took him to mean that some part to rebuild these injectors can only come from India and wont offer these injectors because they wouldn't be up to their standards.:mad:

That's totally weird. Doesn't the 86 SDL have the same engine and injectors as the 87 model?

Interestingly the Colorado rebuilder has an image of Made-in-India nozzles on their rebuilding-process page. So apparently they don't mind using Indian made nozzles.

Also I just got a reply from the injector tester seller and he tells me there are two adapters, 17 and 19 mm. This tells me that this tester won't work with 603 injectors. :(

That pic is when the India nozzle first starting being supplied..., BEFORE I knew they were crap. None of the injectors I've sold to anyone else have had the India nozzles. I do have five of them that I tested in my car for about 50 miles for sale cheap!

As for the injectors, I had to machine an adapter for the 617 injectors, so I should be able to do the same for the 603. I'll pull a 603 injector and see what I can do. If I can come up with an adapter, I can offer to rebuild them, but with working on cars, teaching and cussing at F**ds (don't EVER let a Mercedes customer talk you into working on their powerstroke, getting the injectors out is a PITA!!), it's hard to find the time to do the injectors and not many have wanted them anyway.

Also have a dozen watches downstairs to work on and a business proposal for the biodiesel group. Sheesh...., not enough time for all these "hobbies".

I got the diesel injection tester today from eBay. I am going out of town and won't be able to try it for a while. So, I can give you only first impressions for now.

It does not come with any documentation.

It is larger and heavier than I expected.

The gauge reads metric only, no psi.

The only country ID I could find is on the filter in the fuel tank, it reads made in India.

The only part that looks like it could break without much effort is the fuel tank, it is plastic and wouldn't survive much of a blow.

There are a couple spare O-rings with it.

The construction looks quite simple and I think it will be easy to dissassemble if I have problems. The main plunger appears to be held in by a snapring in the bottom.

I attached the picture that looks like the one that I got.

TomJ, are you the Colorado injector rebuilder? You sound like you are. Were you totally serious when you said that only 1 out of 5 of the Indian nozzles are good? Basically you're saying if I just buy a set of the rebuilt injectors from one of the online part stores and install them without any testing, I'm asking for a lot of grief.

I just can't believe how difficult it is to get a set of properly working injectors. Seems like the local shop is the only way to go. I'll call them again and inquire more.

Well, it seems as though I opened a can of worms!

But really, haven't you noticed more recently that the 124's and the SDL's are coming into vogue?

I would bet that there could potentially be a market here, or there, for 1987 OM603.960 and 961 injectors?

I'm looking for a business to buy, or start, and would entertain such a possible venture since it seems to me that the 124 croud is beginning to gather!

Please elaborate......................:)

For the time spent on disassembling, cleaning, checking/replacing parts, re-assembling and balancing injectors, the "income" is not even CLOSE to enough to call it a "business". Having the tester to use on peoples cars that you work on and rebuild and balance their injectors (on the clock) is one thing, but trying to do a business SOLELY based on injector rebuilding is not feasible in the least. I know.

The $'s from ANY business is for the middle man. Provide party "A" with info on how to find party "B". Too much work involved for not enough pay actually DOING the work (I know, I have three peoples cars in the drive way in stages of repair/waiting for parts and just paid another "overdraft fee" - after having written ~$500 in checks for various parts.)

Am ready to give it all up, give everything away and walk the f**king street.

Hi Twitch kitty,
Sorry if I came across the wrong way, that wasn't intended. from what dieseladdict asked, change them all out or the two in question. I would change them all out at same time. cause while you have the injection system apart, it don't take that much time to usually do the rest, where if ya do two now, then maybe another one 4 months later, and another even later, now you have taken more time to replace 6 injectors, and now you have taken the injection system apart 3-4 times , as aposed to once if we change them all at once. an a few perks if ya change them out all at the same time, fuel mileage returns to normal, the engine runs better over all, an you should be good for 200k, and the biggy... peace of mind, cause you just don't know how much longer those other injector will last.


chip

Well I went to the local injector shop again and the price does include balancing, though they didn't seem dedicated to getting the injectors balanced really close and told me that even variations of 200 psi can't be detected by an engine. Anyway so I had the guy break apart one of my injectors to make sure he has the new nozzles and then he tells me the nozzles are $60 each and it's gonna be $78 total per injector. That's nearly $500 for the total rebuild, a bit steep.:mad: Plus when I asked if those are Indian nozzles, he didn't really know or didn't want to say.

I'm thinking maybe I should just buy the nozzles online and rebuild the injectors myself, but I'll probably end up with pop pressures all over the place.:( Since I don't have a tester, would it be better to buy the whole injectors or is that a waste of money?

Sounds like you need to avoid that shop!

I notice a difference between 5 and 3 bar (73 to 29 PSI), so 200 psi (14 bar) is REDICULOUS!! Even the factory injectors are spec'd at +/-5bar.

Definitely do the rebuilds yourself. They will MOST CERTAINLY be closer than 14 bar! Really, a lot of people just dis-assy, clean, install new nozzles and install and do just fine. If they aren't close enough for a smooth run for you, send them to me and I'll adjust them to +/-4 bar (58 psi) for you for $5/each (not including shipping - around $8-12.)

Anyway, $78 is WAY too much and doing it yourself will give you satisfaction and some knowledge of the workings of these injectors.

How do you adjust them and what is being adjusted" Is pop pressure being equalized between each injector? I assume so. Does one adjust them by the size of the washer that sits on the spring inside the injector ?

Yes, pop pressure is being equalized in the set, good way to put it.

Yes, adjusted by washer thickness that sits on the spring.

For those who have bought one of these ebay pop testers, you can also switch and swap housings and springs to come up with the bar you are shooting for if you don't have a wide selection of shim washer thicknesses.

started a new thread on balancing injectors here

where can i purchase the shims to alter the opening pressure of my injectors?do i have to buy a kit with many different thickness or can individuals be orderd

Thanks TomJ for the offer. I decided to order the Ebay tester anyway since it's going to work on my other cars. I also ordered 6 new nozzles for the W124 and I'll just have to install them and hope for the best. I'd hate to have to remove the injectors again because it's a pain on the W124.

So what is the PSI on the injectors and IP on a 240D? Just curious is all.

I know it's no where near my Jetta or the new '04 VW PD's 29,000 psi pump injectors. I bet those cars are going to have some major problems with US dirty fuel. OEM VW fuel filter is 10 micron nominal, 20 micron absolute. :eek:

My understanding is that the 20 something year old MB's main fuel filter was 5 micron 10 absolute. I may be wrong. Im sure others will correct me if so.

Also I beleave the US diesel standards change to Eurospec or close to it in 2006

Little OT
 

BTW... had an interesting conversation with a diesel guy. Apparently the DI design was available way back but the decision was to NOT use it in MB engines but go with IDI (and other company's made simular decisions Im sure) because it is not as efficent and makes for a noiser engine. Lot of redesign went into the DI injectors (on topic point), coolant passages, engine mounts, insulations on the bodys etc. to quite down the DI engines of today. They are showing to have less life than the IDI design too..... but.... better emmisions. Not complaining tooo much. I guess our air is worth it.

What makes the DI diesel pretty much what it is today is the computer contol of the IP. With the VAG-COM program I can actually very the timing of the IP and IQ with my laptop. Adjusting the IQ on the VW TDI can really quite down or smooth out an engine or give it more zip.

I've had one MB tech tell me the filter on the old diesel 123's were 5 micron and that the new MB E320 CDI cars have 2 micron filter's.

I'd love to have a new Chrysler 300C with a 6 cyl CDI engine, that would be the best of both worlds, looks and diesel. :cool:

I finally got the injector tester and much to my surprise it does work with 603 injectors. I already installed new nozzles in all of them and was going to install them today, but now I gotta test them first. Hopefully these new nozzles (made in Turkey) are good.

I just finished testing my injectors. It appears that those Turkish nozzles are pieces of s**t. I got a variation of up to 18 bar and one had mediocre spray pattern and one had a really bad spray pattern. I guess I'll be reinstalling at least some of the original German nozzles.

I have a few questions and I'm hoping someone who knows can answer. Is the huge variation of pop pressure likely due to the shims or springs that are used or could it be the nozzles? How's that knob on the tester used? It appears that it restricts flow when it's fully closed so I had it a few turns open during the testing. What's a good source for the various sizes of shims that I need to balance my injectors? Finally, if my German nozzles turn out to be too worn, is my only option to just keep exchanging these Turkish or Indian nozzles until I find good ones?:(

"Pop" pressure is determined by shim and spring, primarily. Shims are easy to change out and swap around, so they're what is used to adjust pressure. For every 0.05 mm. increase in shim thickness you get about 3 bar pressure increase.

Spray pattern?... you're on your own.

I'm going to try "lapping" the pintle to the nozzle with some very fine diamond paste to resurrect a couple of old nozzles (I've got a bunch). I'll see if there is any future in it. ;)

Source of shim assortment source in the U.S.?.....the kindness of strangers and the wreckers is all I've been able to rely on.

The break pressure for the injectors in a 240D (someone's previous question) is 115-125 bar new; 100 bar used, according to the 1985 TDM.

One thing that I noticed about these new nozzles is that they vary significantly in pintle sliding friction. You're right about using shims to adjust pop pressure, but I'm also thinking that this varying friction could be messing up the pop pressures, and probably the spray pattern too. What do you think?

That's too bad about the availability of shims. I'll try the local diesel injection shop but I don't expect much. First I'll probably try reinstalling some of the old nozzles and maybe swapping a few shims around, though they all look the same and are probably the same size.

Nobody ever answered the question: Is TomJ the Colorado Gold guy? Anybody use these injectors yet? They look nice, price is right, but...... RT

I think TomJ is the Colorado guy. When I asked why this Colorado guy has the Indian nozzles pictured on his site, TomJ replied that that was before he knew they were crap. I would like TomJ to reply again to this thread, especially as to where to get those shims and how he deals with these bad nozzles.

Hey, sorry about not getting back till now, spent the weekend with a basket case engine I had to re-assy (without all the parts/hardware) and haul up from the basement and drop into the truck it was out of. Shop that rebuilt it took it back apart after it blew up in 500 miles and threw everything in carboard boxes (not everything) and threw (literally) into the bed. What a clusterhump!

Anyway, more and more are sending me their "NEW" (rebuilt) injectors 'cause they're not working right. Ten out of ten times so far, they are because of these nozzles. Problem is, I have no source for German nozzles anymore. If I order nozzles, it's hit or miss with getting anything other than Indian ones. Last batch I ordered from Rusty were ALL India.

I've pretty much given up on doing injectors. Kamil is getting the last of my "good" (newer, not worn out) German nozzles. I still have some really worn ones that pop and spray good, but I just can't put these into someones injectors and call them rebuilt.

I'll take some close up pics of the differences and try to post. Meanwhile, I'd suggest people keep what they have and just balance them and NOT get rebuilts as the likelyhood is 100% that they will have the India nozzles.

Hey Tom, thanks for getting back to us. Having already bought these new nozzles and seeing first hand how crappy they are I now share your frustration. :mad:

How about those shims? Do you know any good source?

Had a guy quote on some metric shims in 1mm increments, seemed fairly priced at the time, but I would need to buy 500 at a time. With as few of these that I do now, it's not worth it to me.

A few things you can do; switch and swap springs (they came in various lengths, .865, .870, .875, etc.), upper bodies (measure the depth of the spring recess and swap accordingly, and the poppet/spring seat that goes on top of the nozzle pintle. With all that, you can usually get within +/- 4bar.

I have a stock of all parts and a bunch of shims, with the way it's going with the nozzles, I may just sell my stock and get out of doing them. Will post here first if I decide to do this. Otherwise, the Bosch shops sell the shims, but they're $3 ea in packs of five.

I might be interested in your parts and pieces if you decide to sell them. I very much need a little at home work. I'm looking for ways to stay around the home to better care for my aging folk yet make a little mula. Dad was just in the hospital again and mom is the on that's the most ailing out of the two.

I tested my old German nozzles tonight and it appears that 4 of them have good spray pattern and 2 have decent pattern. Of the new Turkish nozzles, 4 had good pattern, 1 had decent pattern and 1 had bad pattern, almost a solid stream. So it looks like my 18 year old German nozzles are better than the brand new Turkish ones. Now I just have to decide if I should return all the new nozzles or keep 2 of the good ones to replace the German ones with the "decent" pattern. Any thoughts?

The way I judge the pattern is by looking at the width of the cone. The "decent" ones had a somewhat narrower cone than the "good" ones, but no solid stream like the "bad" one. Is it correct to assume that the wider the cone the better the spray pattern or is there a point of no returns?

Interestingly, the pop pressure does vary with different nozzles. I tested all the old German ones in the same injector and got a variation of up to 14 bar.

The turk nozzles are likely better than the India ones. One out of about 10 of the India ones are good (though one out of the four that Kamil sent me was good, so that lowers the ratio I suppose.)

What you are looking for is a good cone and fine spray, but also a "clean" pop, not a "long" pop or squirting and no “after squirt”, just a quick on/off. It should have a certain sound to it, hard to describe. The older German nozzles probably "pop" and spray correctly. Most of the ones that I have with worn in nozzle bases (in the area not covered by the heat shield) still pop and spray really nicely.

Anyway, was finally able to take pics of the various nozzles.

Here's an older German one with about 225k miles on it (notice the finely polished actuation angle on the pintle):

http://home.comcast.net/~tomj/images/germnoz3.JPG

Here's a newer style German nozzle (etched, not machined lettering):

http://home.comcast.net/~tomj/images/germnoz1.JPG

Here's a new French made nozzle:

http://home.comcast.net/~tomj/images/frognoz1a.JPG

And here's an India made nozzle with about 200miles on it (never sprayed right, removed and re-installed old German nozzles):

http://home.comcast.net/~tomj/images/indnoz1a.JPG

Notice on all but the older German one that the actuation surface is roughly machined and there is a step from it to the vertical surface of the tip. Not sure if that is telling, but I do know that when I used polishing compound on that surface of an India made test nozzle, the spray was finer and more consistent, though I wouldn’t suggest doing this on your own injectors, just wanted to see what effect it would have.

how hard is a pop tester to use?

It seems like everything about Mercedes was better in the old days, especially the injectors. I returned all the Turkish nozzles today and I'll try to balance my injectors with the old German nozzles. First I'll do a lot of part swapping, and if that doesn't work I'll try to get some shims. Too bad there isn't some mechanism for easily setting the pop pressure, like setting the gap on spark plugs. That'd be nice.

kmaysob, using a pop tester is easy. The harder part is removing and disassembing the injectors as you have to work carefully and make sure everything is clean.

DieselAddict:

Is you pop tester commercial or homemade?

I searched here (fastlane), and see that they list 1.85mm for 33¢ each. They also list 1.60mm shims, but have a note that they are no longer available.