Yes, your right Jdc1244, BUT, If you pay
100+K for a car you expect it to be more
reliable,have superiour service and be trouble
free.
I agree that problems can happen, but having
a problem fixed and then having to go back 2
months later because it broke again, is something
that just shouldn't happen on a car in that price range.

Also, no matter what make car one buys, receiving
good customer service makes for a happy customer
and one that will return for his next car.

Louis.

This is a comment I've heard many times, and I disagree with it. On the higher-line cars, they really use alot of cutting-edge technology. You expect it to work reasonably well, but it IS cutting-edge stuff. What i have in mind especially are features like the SBC electronically controlled brakes (OK, that's on the SL, but also the Eclass, which isn't really a "higher-line" car for MB, it's the middle-of-the-road), and Distronic, electronically controlled transmissions(which I know is becoming common-place now). Lots of other things that manufacturers are just now getting in to MB has had for years. YEARS!! Controlled area networking of components other manufacturers brag about MB had over 10 years ago for example.
If you want something perfectly (as possibly) trouble-free, I mean HEY, get a Chevy or Ford or something.

Gilly

__________________
Click here to see the items I have up for auction at EBay

Click here to see a photo album of my '62 Sprite Project Moneypit (Now Sold)

I sometimes think that the age of great car making is past. The humble w123 was by no means cutting edge without any air bags or ABS. Yet even those who dislike the w123 grudgingly admit to its fundamentally reliable design and superior build quality. How much would DCX be forced to price a car - and make a profit - with the same quality of a w123 today? $50,000? $80,000?

So you're saying that people that buy a Mercedes now days are paying extra just so they can be guiney pigs who test out new technolgy. I think this is BS. You pay extra to get extra features, reliability, and an all around better car. MB nowdays doesn't provide that.

http://www.bmwlemon.com/
http://www.mylemon.com/VW_Audi_News.html
http://www.myvwlemon.com/

oh and the almighty kind of reliability http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread63310/pg1

any new car will have problems, but did you read some of the "problems" they are talking about? people think carbuilders are superhumans and never make mistakes... they are the ones that want all this crap in their cars and shoud expect it to break, don't think hondas or toyotas are perfect either, i know of several owners with dropped trannies, engines that burn more oil than gasoline, etc... etc...

for the most part, with german cars, its electrical and pretty minor things that people just feel like whining about. Also, you never see many websites praising some of these cars... everybody makes mistakes, and when they do everybody tells everybody else about them, it's the american way... right? but when somebody does something right, NOBODY knows about it. they just "expect" it...

__________________
lifelong burner of the midnight oil

Bingo, and that's why I don't buy new cars any more except Yoda's, and that could change. Wifey's Previa has body panels that bend when you look at them too hard. I can sit on the fender of my 124 and do absolutely no damage, and I weigh 250. At least her car has been trouble-free except AC recharges.

No thanks, I'll pass on new cars, keep buying old solid Benzes until I'm too senile to drive, which could be any day now...

__________________
Thx/Reno
An American in France
88 300TD 5spd Sportline (lowered factory susp) - totalled by a flying deer
89 Range Rover V8 - the 4wd beast
02 Toyota minivan
05 Peugeot Partner 4x4 Dangel
88 International Harvestor 633SA
--Gone but not forgotten:
1970 250/8 C (sold to buy 450 SLC)
1972 450 SLC (sold after battling wiring harness problems too long)
1971 300 SEL 6.3 (sold after destroying two *very* expensive rear LS diffs)
1986 560 SEL (now my little brother's pride and joy)

I agree wholeheartedly that it's "BS", but I still stand by the comments I made. You seem to agree as well, saying that "MB doesn't provide that. That's exactly what I'm saying, but I'm not saying it's a good thing neccesarily. Unless you want to have the latest and greatest technology, but the owners shouldn't complain too loudly when the new technology fails. You'd be better off with PROVEN technology if that's all they're going to do is beeyatch when the new toy breaks.
Yes, they are guinea pigs, but they are also very safe vehicles, which means alot, the safety features all seem to work OK.

__________________
Click here to see the items I have up for auction at EBay

Click here to see a photo album of my '62 Sprite Project Moneypit (Now Sold)

For the most part I agree with you on this post. I would love for car makers to abandon all this electronic junk as it detracts from making fundamentally sound automobiles. Good machines. Today, the "good machine" part has been relegated to an expected feature, largely due to Toyota and Honda, and automakers distinguish themselves with electronics. Which they typically sub out to suppliers. MB's old approach from the late 1970's was to partner with Bosch or another company, develop a new product (then mostly safety systems like ABS, Airbags, ESP and so forth) that was thoroughly wrung out before it went into production. But these systems were then very shortly Bosch's to sell to other automanufacurers.

For example, MB and Bosch developed automobile ABS systems in the 1970's. They were not perfected to MB standards until the 1980's. You could, at the end (well from 1982 to 1985, at least) of the W123 production run, buy a 240D with ABS and an airbag in the steering wheel hub, if you lived in Germany. I have the ordering books with prices and they were simultaneously made available across the production lines back then. These items arrived in the US on the W201, W124 and W126 series.

Today's marketing pressures do not allow similar gestation periods for new technology and consequently it gets developed in the hands of customers. I suspect the agreements between MB and Bosch are structured differently today as a result.

But, a modern version of the W123 would appeal to so few people regardless of its cost, it will never be built. The buying public is to blame for the conversion of automobiles from machines to something that masquerades as a machine and is really an object to hang electronic junk from that would otherwise have no market. Stop buying cars with electronically controlled A/C, seats, windows, mirrors and so on. This stuff makes more money for the automakers than the car, so as long as we buy the junk, they will sell it to us. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Jim, I agree with you on most of what you say, but there were considerable numbers of 115's, 116's, 123's and 126's (my favorite)sold world wide not to mention the models before the 115 series. they were all solidly built elegant cars of the highest order.

Where I think Mercedes made their mistake was was not being satified with selling a smaller number of cars and maintaining their hallmark reputation and tried to jump in to mass market where price, gimmicks and slick promotion is the name of the game.Then if you add to the mix the purchase of Crysler Corp. you have a formula for "it used to be the best car built"

Of course many people will say yes but they had to compete in the modren market. And my answer is why!as they had a market unto them selves for decades why compete with Lexus, BMW, Honda, etc.why not continue with smaller numbers of sales
and the highest standards of quality. This Method works fine for ,Porsche, rolex, Gucci,to name a few. Just how long can their reputation of old last when the grumbling grows louder and louder..........

William Rogers...........

Totally true. I'm not a long time MB fan, but I'm at a point where I might actually consider buying a car that isn't at least ten years old, and I'm wary of newer MB's, as well as just about everything else. Then I find myself wondering, why would I buy another car anyway? What do I need that the 300D doesn't provide? (Other than having a lot of fun driving a car to its limits that was made to go there, that is?). Even for the "fun" element, I'd rather buy an old 944 or 911 than a 350Z/RX8/Acura/whatever else...Too much money to pay and insure. You can buy houses for what these cars cost. You might not want to live in it yourself, but at least you get some tax breaks until you pass them on to someone who does. A car is only going to cost you and lose you money. What are all the goodies really worth?

Well said. I started voting with my wallet when I retired. When you're working hard, earning big, and you (think you) need a nice new car to keep up your work persona, it's easiest to just pop for a new car and change it when the warrantee ends. That's not to say you won't have car troubles. Just choose a dealer with a good loaner car policy.

But my priorities are different now. I just don't need all that crap, and I'm not going to pay for crap I don't need that will probably cause problems down the road anyway.

Take ABS for example. I think to myself "When was the last time I used ABS?" I don't think I have ever used it as it was intended. It's helpful in very hard cornering on uneven roads to keep an inside wheel from locking up. But in normal driving and even regular sporting driving I never trip it. There was no ABS when I was a kid and I learned threshold braking as a wild young punk speeder. Now I threshold brake without thinking about it.

And ESP, a sore spot for me. What kind of bonehead needs the car to take over directional control? I guess if I have a stroke at the wheel it might help me crash easier. Maybe not. I've seen too many ESP systems fail already, and again I just don't need that crap, and I'm not going to pay for crap I don't need that will probably cause problems down the road anyway.

Hence my 124. A perfect car. Solid, reliable, simple, safe.

__________________
Thx/Reno
An American in France
88 300TD 5spd Sportline (lowered factory susp) - totalled by a flying deer
89 Range Rover V8 - the 4wd beast
02 Toyota minivan
05 Peugeot Partner 4x4 Dangel
88 International Harvestor 633SA
--Gone but not forgotten:
1970 250/8 C (sold to buy 450 SLC)
1972 450 SLC (sold after battling wiring harness problems too long)
1971 300 SEL 6.3 (sold after destroying two *very* expensive rear LS diffs)
1986 560 SEL (now my little brother's pride and joy)

Don't you mean Toyota???

Speaking of Toyota, this company just became No.1 in world sales surpassing Ford globally in a time when sales of automobiles are on a decline. Last year the company posted a $10billion profit but spent almost 60% of it in research and development and looks like it is justified considering its quality reputation overall. The fact that instead of being profit oriented like most companies today and that sadly includes MB, the company is tightly knitted and prefers quality of profit. What this means is bad news for its shareholders as Toyota dividends have never been spectacular despite their modestly good profits but on the other hand, Toyota consumers have been rewarded with solidly built, quality vehicles. This is exactly how MB used to be in the seventies and eighties and it is exactly this philosophy that has yielded superb vehicles like the W123 bodied OM 616/617 engine vehicles. Research, pioneering technology, pride in build quality was everything for the MB of the old, as soon as they added the Chrysler name, I knew sadly all this would end and I was quite right judging by the present state.

Sorry for the long post, had to get it off my heart.

As a small investor, I learned a few discouraging things about the health of the American auto sector. While Toyota spends heavily on R&D, Ford and GM are literally forced to spend as much or more to fund the pensions of their retired workforce.

The numbers are staggering. GM has something like 60k retirees receiving good pensions. Toyota NA has 60.

So when one of the big 2 posts a profit, a lot of that money goes to fund the pension accounts. When they post a loss, guess what, they still have to fund the pension accounts.

My bet is that MBC is in about the same situation. German workers get good pensions too.

__________________
Thx/Reno
An American in France
88 300TD 5spd Sportline (lowered factory susp) - totalled by a flying deer
89 Range Rover V8 - the 4wd beast
02 Toyota minivan
05 Peugeot Partner 4x4 Dangel
88 International Harvestor 633SA
--Gone but not forgotten:
1970 250/8 C (sold to buy 450 SLC)
1972 450 SLC (sold after battling wiring harness problems too long)
1971 300 SEL 6.3 (sold after destroying two *very* expensive rear LS diffs)
1986 560 SEL (now my little brother's pride and joy)