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MW IP Modification / Tuning Services
I am officially on my own job wise and I am testing the waters. If this is not the correct venue, I sincerely apologize.
After tuning a few 616 NA MW IPs for on and off road use, I am considering building a rig to set up and bench tune MW IPs with RW Governors. This would include changing the Elements to larger ones, changing Governor springs, and individual Governor settings to meet the owners needs. After looking into this for a while now, I am disappointed but not shocked, by the loose tolerances of the settings that are considered OK per the factory. Without getting into detail how I would build my rig, all measurement tooling would be certified, Element shims would be custom ground to achieve the finest degree of accuracy of the start of injection between cylinders. Fuel delivery quantity would be measured mechanically, (hydraulic cylinders with dial indicators), as apposed to graduated pipepets. I would also put on my, (wish), list an engine on a dyno. I have an engine dyno, but it is set up for something else, so I would have to build a new test stand and then get a good engine. If I were to do this, I would first build up an IP and take it to an independent Injection shop for verification of the settings. If any shortcomings are identified, I would take the necessary steps to address any such issues in order to achieve as close to perfection as possible. If I survive the beatings that are sure to come, I will figure out potential costs. As always, your thoughts are encouraged. |
I say go for it. I have been thinking about making a test bench myself, but I just don't have the time.
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If you are anticipating that you will be doing this for eventual profit I would be very surprised if there is much of a market. There is infinitely more talk about what people could do, would do, want to do, than there is any realistic willingness of the same people to actually pay for something. Now you might get the occasional young punk intent on throwing away the money mommy and daddy give him as subsidized rent, but I'll bet there are damn few adults who will actually pony up the what, $1000 for a blueprinted tuned IP. With all the work you're talking about I can't imagine that you can do it for much less than that. How you’ll get people to spring that much for something with no track record will be near impossible I’d bet! Maybe if it works and you give away the first ten at cost you might be able to jump start some demand.
You only mention OM 616 and that market can’t be very big to begin with. Don’t get me wrong it would certainly be a worthy endeavor for someone with the time, talent and resources but your rewards are more likely be self satisfaction rather than remuneration I’m afraid. There are more than a few threads about fantasy projects like transmission adapters, high flow manifolds and similar projects that have 25 guys saying yeah, yeah, yeah, and in the end no more than one or two who actually will write check when the time comes. |
do you have any idea how you want to alter the governor setting?
I mean what will be the result of your adjustment (after swapping elements)? More power clear, but will the governor keep all the functions? Or even better can you provide a Bosch instruction with your modification for each setting? Tom |
professional injection pump benches cost over $100,000 for pretty good reasons. trying to build one yourself won't make good results.
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I would be able to work on any MW IP that has a RW Governor. I have done more 616 IPs because they need all they can get. 5 and 6 cylinder IPs would not be an issue as long as they have the RW governor as that is what I am familiar with. As for the cost for service, $1000.00 is about right. However, as has been pointed out, I would be new without a track record and as such I was thinking, (without actually looking into the actual machine build/run/maintenance costs), that I would be in the range of $500 to $600 for labor, any parts would be added to that. After I have a proven track record I will be able to justify the higher cost. |
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My experience has been with 5.5mm Element PIs. My 240 has a bad Element and I want to put 8mm Elements to go with the turbo I have for it. That would be my first working with larger elements. I would combined extrude honed nozzles with the larger elements with the goal to reduce injection dwell and increase fuel atomization at the reduced injection dwell, (pulse width). The targeted goal, regardless of element size, is improved drivability. To me, drivability is made up of qualities that include, smooth and reliable power, predictable reliable performance, good fuel economy, no/low smoke, good lifespan. "More power clear, but will the governor keep all the functions?" Yes, the governor(s) are individually adjustable and yet react to each other to some degree. For example, that is why the idle speed changes when the Torque Control is turned up. After not being able to get my engine to return to idle after following the information available on a few different forums, I took a sep back focusing on how a basic Governor works and visualized what each IP Governor does,(Idle, Torque Control, Max speed), and how it does it in correspondence with the other Governors, and figured out how to adjust the Idle and throttle to allow the Idle governor to do its job after adjusting the Torque Control. The result is, in the case of a 616, that the dash idle control is not needed, even with the A/C on. Improved bottom end / mid range torque and throttle response, with a stronger high end pull. The total amount of fuel on the top end is about the same in an effort to keep EGTs in a reasonable range due to the poor VE at high RPMs, but by adjusting the TC, I can shift the fueling curve to allow more fuel at lower speeds, (higher VE), and reduce the reduction curve as PRMs increases. I have seen some Bosch manuals and I am talking with a pump shop in an effort to get some tools and a copy of a manual. After talking with the pump teck I think the best way to go is take a pump that I tuned up off a car and get some base line measurements. Pull the pump down, put it back together, bench tune, and run it. The only spec that I think is needed from Bosch is the start of injection height. The Governor settings are fueling rate related and I could not find any setting ranges other than stock. My approach would be to put electronic linear motion sensors on the rack and the injection fueling rate/volume cylinders and monitor RPM. This would allow me to graph the, fueling rate and Rack position, curves in relation to each other and RPM. The idea would be to find the desired injector volume at idle, and full power, (an individual engine/driver specific specification), then adjust the individual governors to get the curve that best fits the drivers drivability expectations. A bonus would be to put the PI on the engine dyno and verify the set up. |
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"Be Wery,Wery careful,Mr. Rabbit."
The OM616 HAS NO Piston Oil Cooling Jet system.
(AND the Cranks are not Nitrided. [or Heat Hardened]) Even with an Intercooler,Pyrometer(With baseline measurements,BEFORE)and Oil Temperature Gauge...I'd be hesitant to put ANY sort of "Blower" on one. The "Senzor" setup you intend is remarkably similar to the CDIs,BUT without ANY control functions. |
So the votes are;
1: For :) 1: Against :mad: 1: Neutral :confused: 1: Against putting a turbo on a 240D :eek: I am very interested in Tomnik's thoughts. I would be happy to get them privetly if preferred. The reality is I have talked to several pump shops in my area and none of them would touch aftermarket elements and their tolerances are not as tight as I would like to see. So I am going to set up my pump with 8mms, probably by spring time. I was just testing to see if it was worth sending the time and money to build a rig. Voting is still open. |
are the 8 mm elements BOSCH or after market?
In case of after market you will not be successful with the set up. At least all after market elements I have seen are far beyond tolerance which makes it impossible to set up the pump especially when we talk about making things better than stock. In case you want a single tuned MW for your own use, get in contact with David (Dervtuning) on the other side for the set up, I have the elements 6.5mm diameter. Tom |
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I am planning on modifying the helix to tailor,(reduce), the fueling curve, (per degree of plunger rotation), to allow more rack movement for a given amount of delivery. The goal is to maintain the total rack travel just with a steeper delivery curve due to the increased total volume that I want. Or I would maintaining the same volume as the 5.5mm elements and just shorten the injection time. Anytime one uses a part or assembly that is made for a different application at best, it becomes a R/D program. Better living through modification. Other than your custom elements, there are no plug and play performance options for the MW IPs, so I was planning on using the aftermarket elements as blanks and modifying them to meet my needs. As a plus they are cheep enough that I can burn a few while developing the process to modify them as I want. No one really knows who we all are, our background and experience, or what our capabilities are. I personally take no offence when I read a post that says, you can't do that, it will never work. I have found it to be easier to do something if I do not know it can't be done while I am doing it. That way I can focus on the task and not on trying to find the wall of impossibility. So the proof is in the pudding. As there is no interest, I will not dedicate resources toward building a production rig. First I will get some elements and measure them up to see what I have to work with. I will try to take pictures as I go, but I am not in the habit of that. Tom, If I have to go with genuine Bosch elements then I would go with yours. The others are so cheap, (for a reason I understand), that I can spend some time to try to get what I want and not feel bad if it doesn’t work out. Educations are expensive a friend says. |
the issue with after market elements (those I had in my hands at least) is tolerance of manufacturing and bad manufacturing of the edges.
I.e. the edges of the control "grooves" had a radius instead of being sharp. The reason might be wrong harness while grinding or whatever. Next tolerances in plunger/barrel matching. Put the plunger in a defined position, fix it in an apparatus and put 350 bar test oil from the high pressure side. Measure the drop down to 250 bar in seconds. Do the same at a different plunger position. You will see that the after market elements are very different among each other. This will result in well adjustable quantity (balanced) for idle and very different quantities in upper ranges. Now you can adjust the high range but it will result in uneven idle quantities. At that point it should be clear that these elements are crap and not worth the time you spend, even when you get the elements for free. Now you tell me that you intend to modify the control edge, good idea! but the basic quality is already out of reach. An IP done like that will perform well but idle is horrible (did you hear that somewhere?). This is not theory I spent a lot of money and time on that and ended up doing my own elements for a good reason. Tom |
Tom,
Thanks for the incite. I would love to pick your brain and get all the information you have gathered and learned through your element development program. Please understand that I do not intend to imply that I know something that you don't. I appreciate and value your experience in this area and any information that you can provide is greatly appreciated. But I do not want to take advantage (or steal) what you have spent time and money to figure out. I am willing to take my lumps and burn my fingers so to speak. It you were not making your own elements that would be one thing, however you have a good investment in your program and I do not want you to undermine your potential market share by publishing sensitive technical information. The Bosch 8mm elements are $220.00 ea here in the USA. I have a couple feelers out for aftermarket ones, however I bet they are all coming from the same place. As for the leak down rate, if I can get some cheep enough I can test a batch and use 4 that are closest to each other. I will need to build a pressure test rig for that much pressure! Another thought I had is that with the large dia, the actual used stroke will be very short so the pressurized area in the bore will be concentrated just off idle, so if the barrel leaks down after the used portion of the stroke I would think that should not cause an issue. Like you said, I need to figure the used stroke and pump them up and see how consistent they are to each other. |
I don't want to hide information I just thought you should not go the learning path I already went.
The custom MW elements cost me 75 EUR/each and they work perfectly. In my opinion the good governor operating range gets too narrow when you cut off fuel to let's say 80-100 ccm/1000revs using the 8mm elements. This is the reason why I am not too much after quantity at all cost but a good relation of quantity within the original range of the governor. Either the governor gets too sensitive or the car looses drive ability. Getting 8mm for free and cheap bench access together with a bench freak, o.k. but not if you have to pay for. Tom |
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Governor operation is one of the reasons I want to modify the "Control Edge" to get a different curve. I will only be able to use a minor percentage of the delivery capacity that the 8mms can put out, and I want to be able to use the governor to it's furthest extent tuning wise. I am leaning towards EDMing the groove instead of grinding. I got a quote for $64.80 ea for an aftermarket Bosch 1 148 415 058, 8mm Barrel / Plunger assembly. Distributor is located in California, but I am sure they are made in China. I am going to ask who actually manufactured them. I am yet to hear from two other possible sources. I have heard rumors of assemblies for under $20.00! Sounds scary to me. From your experience with aftermarket Barrel/Plunger assemblies, which manufactures are the best and worst quality wise? I am also going to do some research into the Injector lines and pop pressures that these elements are used, and compare them with the lines and pressures we use, and evaluate the merits of getting the Delivery Valves that are used with these elements. My concern is that, for example, at idle, I would be moving, (displacing), the same amount, (volume), of fuel, but doing so in 1/2 the time. My thinking is that the stock DV is calibrated for a range of fuel volume, delivered over a period of time. If I reduce the time it takes to deliver the same fuel volume I am afraid the DV will not perform correctly and cause poor idle, smoke, etc. |
no problem with the DV. I have compared the DV with ones out of a 10mm MW IP. Also I have directly compared the DV with the orifice and without in the same IP with no difference on the bench. Regarding the collar the DVs of the small 5.5 IP are the best in sense of narrow collar.
I tried several after market elements (at that time M) and it seems to me that they are identical origin. Take a close look at the control edge. This edge has to be without radius. This is the reason why grinding the hardened part is the only way to do it, no EDMing. Edges with visible (shiny) radius are bad quality. No problem, but the detailed geometry is slightly different and will result in different flows at different rpm and positions. You can not balance them well in low AND higher rpm ranges. Some people live with crappy idle (its a race car) and focus on balancing the high rpms. Before changing the edge I would rather touch the "gearing" of the governor levers to expand the operation range (let's assume you have good quality elements), but I took the decision that this is more complicated than just making new elements. The precision of manufacturing elements is far beyond what a good machine shop can do. I also asked those guys but the answer was the same for all of them. Do a search there was a guy who had 8 mm installed but he stopped posting. Tom |
Well it appears that my first source, (here in the USA), is the best chance I have to get 8mm Barrel and Plunger assemblies. Price is $64.80 ea, and I can buy one if I want. I am sure they are made over seas as they do not have then in stock here in the US, will be 10 to 12 days to get in.
No one else I contacted had any, but they said they would make them if I had a sample. Min order is 500 pcs. I need to do something with my 616 IP and for $260.00 I think I will order some 8mms and see what I get to work with. It will be interesting to see after measuring the helix geometry what the actual displaced volume per degree of plunger rotation is. It is easy to say, (and arrogant), because I have not done it yet, but, I am confident that the governor is capable of working just fine with the 8mms, and that I can dial it in. It really depends on the geometry of the controlling edge. I have searched some what, but could not find anyone that has actually run 8mms. Over at super there is a fellow that had 10mms installed and had brief video of it idling but nothing since. I have a microscope with a USB camera. I will put the control edge under it and save some pictures for you to evaluate. I will also have the helixes optically measured, this will create a model of the actual groove, and I will be able to see the sharpness of the edge and how well the groove geometry matches each other. I would do this again if I modify the plunger for quality control. I am getting some interest in tuning MW pumps, so I will start researching parts to build a test bench. |
Just a thought:
before you spend money and time with building a test bench you might want to get these 8mm elements at least adjusted in a shop where you can assist. In case it turns out that the quality of those elements is not enough you can focus on that and safe the time/money for the bench. On the other hand your project is highly interesting. Tom |
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I am not concerned about the DVs ability to flow fuel, but rather that they do what ever they do for a good idle. It seems that the idle speed increases slightly with cut DVs indicating an increase in delivery, which can be adjusted back to where it was with the stock DVs, but the idle is terrible. I am thinking the issue is with the quality of the spray pattern. A wider DV collar may be necessary when the pressure rise and fall or delivery is faster? To compensate for stronger or weaker springs? Question; if you ran a stock IP on a bench as a "standard", and then swapped out the DVs for cut ones and re-ran the tests, would there be a discernable difference in the two readings? |
what I am doing (maybe next week, when my bench guy is putting my IP back on the bench again) is to install a different DV into cyl. 1 to see the difference in quantity. But I fear that playing with DV is more a question of spray pattern and timing than just more quantity, or a combination of all.
As said many times before what is going on in the hard lines is more acoustics than physics and a thing to be looked at at a later point. I just wanted to note that there is no restriction by the stock DV as far as I increased quantity. Tom |
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I have to dig out a spare IP and set it up to map out the cam profile. I want to know how much lift takes place at each degree of cam rotation. That information will be used to determine what, if anything, I want to do with the groove geometry. Another question for everyone; given that the flame speed is theoretically known for diesel fuel, is it possible to make an excel spread sheet that will show how long it will take specific amounts of fuel to burn, starting with a good idle quantity up to say 300 HP with a 617 bore and stroke? My interest is in that it would be bad to inject fuel faster than it can burn, as that would allow access, (nonignited), fuel to collect, and a second independent flame front could ignite, and when the two or three flame fronts come together (Detonation). |
Don't forget to collect also the plunger rotation over rod position...
Your thoughts about flame front is correct, but (at least in my opinion) not worth and hardly possible at all to calculate. What I intend to do is to measure the pressure curve over engine crank shaft position. This will give information about the pressure build up, timing and duration of pressure/flame runtime/injection. There are many parameters such as spray time and pattern and the whole thing with pressure waves in the hard lines. Tom |
I was talking with one of my customers who has a 240D that he races on parking lot road courses mostly. (I tuned up his IP last spring). He is looking to step it up a notch or two and we talked about what the current limitations were yada yada.
At the end of the brainstorming session, he decided he wants to put a turbo on it with an IC, and build a new IP with 8mm elements if they work out, or 6.5mm ones if the 8mms don't. Also the governor would be gutted like a fish. The only governing function we agreed is useful for a "race car" would be the idle governor, the Torque Control and Max speed go by by. As we talked about the idea it just made more sense. Any fuelling curve control that was absolutely necessary could be done via the ALDA rod, which also would be used to control the throttle sensitivity. This set up is not intended for road use, (at this point), only closed course, on / off style driving, where the driver is limited to the driver, not the fueling curve happy governor. This is just heresy until I get a test bench up and running and compare the controlability of governed and non-governed. I plan on ordering some 8mm elements around the first of March, should take about two weeks to get them in they said. Then the fun begins. |
WOW, I have received several inquiries into working on M pumps today! Was it something I said? :)
On a side note; Thanks to all for PMing you questions. I think that is the best way, although some of you need to make some space in your mail box. I could not reply to two of you. Again as a disclaimer, please read this entire thread. I have not worked with M pumps, yet, because I do not have one and I really like the MW's design over the M, and the MW will handle more abuse, (higher Pressure), that the M will. Question: If I had a "HOT" MW IP with Tomnik's 6.5mm elements or modified "aftermarket" 8mm elements would you consider it over an M? |
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After setting up the 603a M-IP with 7.5mm I know what I am talking about. I wish there is a MW 6 cylinder for the 60x engines. The reason is the adjustment of balancing the individual timing on both designs. On the M the rollers have to be exchanged, which means that the cam has to go out. On the MW you just shim the barrel from out side. On top the rollers are not cheap. Either you have a complete set of them with different diameters or (in my case) you have to measure, calculate and order the necessary diameter (and hope that it is available). The you start from the beginning. An experienced bench guy will do this only once, I had to do it more than one time and most of standard bench shops won't care about. I learned this when I ordered the rollers. This also shows how important it is to find a good bench shop. On the other hand the result is only a roughly running engine:cool: Tom |
What would be the difference in physical fit to the OM603 engine? Would it require different hardware, injection lines, etc?
First impression is that it means buying another pump vs tuning a known good one. If it's better though, ... depends on the cost. |
I seem to recall being told that the MW has a shorter control collar length than the M pumps and as such it increases its fuel delivery quantity/mm of rack travel more quickly. This was supposedly one of the reasons for building M pumps rather than MW's as the MW's with big plungers became very touchy when on the engine. I know my M pump has a fair bit more travel on the speed control lever than my MW and that helps to reduce the sensitivity as well. Has anyone verified what the control distances are on the two pumps?
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I still have to look, but I want to order the Delivery Valves that the 8mm Elements use and see what the difference is between them and the 5.5mm Element Delivery Valves. If the collar is different there may be some benefit in drivability. Another thing I would want is to get some extrude honed nozzles. I am thinking around 25% larger area. Reason behind my thinking is given a set quantity of fuel and injection time, with a larger nozzle circumference, the amount the pintel would have to move would be less than with a smaller circumference. As a result of the reduced pintle lift, the gap between the pintle and the nozzle orifice that the fuel passes through would be tighter which would aid in atomization. A smaller orifice would require that the pintel lifts higher, making the gap wider resulting in a thicker fuel stream so to speak. In addition, if you reduce the length of injection time and increase the amount of fuel, I could see a small orifice pintel over traveling from a pressure serge. A larger orifice would be better at releasing the pressure while keeping as tight of a gap as possible. All and all, IMO one can not change one thing in a balanced system and expect it to still perform as a balanced system. If one changes one aspect of a balanced system, the other aspects must also be changed to compensate for the first change. |
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If they are not some complex thing, I can have them ground to fit and rehardned, (if necessary), or just make them myself. Either way the M pump will be a lot more labor to get it set up "correctly". I would be interested to see how close Myna gets a M pump to being "correct", this includes where the end of injection takes place. Tomnik, am I correct in thinking that your 7.5MM "M" pump Elements are designed with a better end of injection point in mind than Myna's 7mm elements have? The MW is a much better design IMO, but the 60X guys are stuck with the M pumps. This means I would be going head to head with Myna's, (out of country), reputation. I am good with that but would need a good source for 7.5mm elements for the M pump. I am looking at a couple of "Commercial" benches, but they are so big with all that mechanical drive garbage to fail, and I would have to still to put all the measurement parts on one. I will be offering a LABOR DISCOUNT to the first 5 customers. I will need to recover the cost of the bench as quickly as possible. Anyone who is serious and willing to be a trail blazer, (there are a couple already), PM me with what pump you have and what you want to end up with. This could be from just tuning the Governors to fix the return to idle problems, (while maintaining or increasing the current fueling curve), to custom elements and or Governor springs installed and Governor tune. Every pump will have a graphed print out showing the fueling curves. I will stand behind my work, but parts are on there own. |
I apologize in advance if this is an intrusion, but I did want to let everyone know that we have a tuning service up and running. I can fully appreciate wanting to test your own pump, and this is a great thread!
As of right now, we have an M pump getting ready for some quality time on the bench, fitted with Tomnik's ultra high quality 7.5mm Floyd elements. Tom and I have been in the testing phase for some time now, and will soon have solid metrics with respect to the Floyd elements. When this occurs, I shall post the results, along with additional information. Another facet to consider when using less than optimal quality elements, is internal fuel delivery leakage. This will result in fuel dilution of the engine oil, so it will need to be monitored very closely, and the oil changed often. For reference, we do have the $100K+ bench, and are Bosch trained professionals. Thanks! Sincerely, David @ DervTuning |
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Don't get me wrong, I am all for competition, best man wins and all, but at least have the decency or respect to start your own thread and slam me from there. You did not say what you will charge to use your 100K+ bench and Professional Bosch technicians. Don’t just tease us. What is the price to put 7.5mms, and governor tune of a 617 / 603 / 606 M pump? |
the cooperation with David is running since summer 2009.
The thread was not to high jack yours, it is just the information that the swap and set up in the US already exists, the first few jobs are in progress right now. Not for competition and not for keeping exclusivity but David is already in progress. The cost will be determined after the first lab rat's swaps to get an idea of complexity and required time. The goal is to get the elements swapped in the US following a kind of standard and not shipping complete IPs over the pont. Tom |
Cool, I'm a lab rat :beta1:
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I would be very surprised if your partner did not want an exclusive deal in exchange for the R&D time |
see it the other way: I have the elements!
I am not making profit with selling the elements, just want to get the money back that I paid. The >2 years of developing, many phone calls and paying for instructions and some parts for the scrap bin not included. This is hobby and I got in contact with highly interesting people. But I insist on results of installing these elements that pull the full potential out of them, no matter who will do it. David is one of them, at least he has the means, understanding and the will to do it. And he is already in progress. I don't want to call up a competitor situation, I just want to get my elements work properly. I also learned ($$) that it makes sense to pay for the swap and set up (done by a specialist) rather than walking the hard way on your own. And you can be sure that I will keep my eyes also on the cost for swap and set up of my elements - I have the elements;) Tom |
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I totally understand your position and ideology regarding the completion or your work, (installing the elements), and have a great deal of respect for you due to that. My objection to David's first post was not in regards to your products or his processes to install them for you, exclusive or not, makes no difference to me. I think the M pump would be a pain to fine tune to the degree I would want it, and that will make it more expensive to set up than an MW. I will order some aftermarket 8mm and 10mm MW elements and put them through some quality tests. If they pass, I will them determine if I want to modify the plungers and possibly the barrel feed holes. If that can be done successfully, I have a couple return MW clients that I will put them in. After that I may build up one every now and them and put it on e-bay. Tom, if I have offended you in any way, I sincerely apologize, it was not my intention. I also want to thank you for you incite as to my experimentation with the MW aftermarket elements. I truly wish you good luck with you work. Dave |
Dave,
no problem. We don't need to invent the wheel twice. I always will share all the information I have. Don't hesitate to contact me or even David when it comes to bench job. Our common goal is to get larger elements running perfectly at reasonable cost no matter who does it. Tom |
Bosch 7MM elements for a M pump
PES4M70C321RS Injection Pump, application OM615.940. I haven't looked up the actual element number to see how pricey they are. I also got a quote for some 10mm MW elements from a California aftermarket supplier. They are the same price as the 8mm ones @ $64.80ea. I will order some samples in March for testing. |
check out the 10mm MW thread on suoerturbodiesel for quality of the Californian after market stuff.
If still attractive for you better go for the 8mm. Tom |
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I am really interested in reducing the injection time, but the 10mms just seem overkill. I'll see what the tests uncover and go from there. Because I will only be using a short portion of the cam lift, I am thinking about grinding the cam so the plunger does not travel any further than it has to. This will reduce the amount of fuel going in and out of the barrel, increase the fill time, and possibly increase the RPM range. There is a lot of measurements I need to make first. |
Does anyone know for certain, the size of the elements in the 603.970 pump (3.5L)?
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5.5mm!
The type plate PES 6 M 55 ... tells the plunger diameter. Tom |
Thanks Tom.
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Only the 606a got larger elements. only 6mm though, not really worth the effort with 7 and 7.5mm available for the same cost.
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What else will that plate tell me? Do you know if the cam is different in the 3.0L 603.96x and the 3.5L 603.97x?
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The cam has to be the same. The elements are the same for 3.0 and 3.5l.
The differences are adjustment. Besides different features at the back of the governor also emission regulation need different settings and there are many of them. The type plate does not tell much more really interesting. There is an explanation somewhere in the forum. Tom |
Missing why the cam has to be the same. Not meaning to sound clever, quite the opposite really, but my thought is that the 3.5L has 1/6 more displacement, and is a lower RPM engine. Seems that the same elements needing to inject 1/6 more fuel in the same rotation would need to use more of the elements' stroke volume in the same degrees of rotation. Tuning could deliver more volume but wouldn't it also change the end of injection if the injection rate wasn't also increased (more aggressive cam profile)? This can also reduce emissions, another goal of the 3.5L. Is there a parts breakdown of the different pumps in the EPC or is this a Bosch-only database?
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Bosch information only, but I don't have access at the moment.
As soon as the program is up again I will show you that elements and cam are the same. The 3.5l has nearly the same hp with larger displacement so there is not significant more fuel. As you mentioned the rpm are lower this is also an indication that only adjustments are different. I will also try to find the adjustment instruction. Tom |
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