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  #1  
Old 01-07-2010, 08:42 PM
10mm MW
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Michigan
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MW IP Modification / Tuning Services

I am officially on my own job wise and I am testing the waters. If this is not the correct venue, I sincerely apologize.

After tuning a few 616 NA MW IPs for on and off road use, I am considering building a rig to set up and bench tune MW IPs with RW Governors. This would include changing the Elements to larger ones, changing Governor springs, and individual Governor settings to meet the owners needs.

After looking into this for a while now, I am disappointed but not shocked, by the loose tolerances of the settings that are considered OK per the factory.

Without getting into detail how I would build my rig, all measurement tooling would be certified, Element shims would be custom ground to achieve the finest degree of accuracy of the start of injection between cylinders. Fuel delivery quantity would be measured mechanically, (hydraulic cylinders with dial indicators), as apposed to graduated pipepets.

I would also put on my, (wish), list an engine on a dyno. I have an engine dyno, but it is set up for something else, so I would have to build a new test stand and then get a good engine.

If I were to do this, I would first build up an IP and take it to an independent Injection shop for verification of the settings. If any shortcomings are identified, I would take the necessary steps to address any such issues in order to achieve as close to perfection as possible.

If I survive the beatings that are sure to come, I will figure out potential costs.

As always, your thoughts are encouraged.

Last edited by OM616; 01-09-2010 at 01:00 AM.
  #2  
Old 01-07-2010, 11:49 PM
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I say go for it. I have been thinking about making a test bench myself, but I just don't have the time.
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1998 Mercedes E300TD

1983 Mercedes 240D Turbo, 131bar injectors, Cosworth intercooler and 63' Ford Falcon radiator, Ardic Parking heater, Headlight wipers, Best 38.6mpg.

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  #3  
Old 01-08-2010, 12:37 AM
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If you are anticipating that you will be doing this for eventual profit I would be very surprised if there is much of a market. There is infinitely more talk about what people could do, would do, want to do, than there is any realistic willingness of the same people to actually pay for something. Now you might get the occasional young punk intent on throwing away the money mommy and daddy give him as subsidized rent, but I'll bet there are damn few adults who will actually pony up the what, $1000 for a blueprinted tuned IP. With all the work you're talking about I can't imagine that you can do it for much less than that. How youíll get people to spring that much for something with no track record will be near impossible Iíd bet! Maybe if it works and you give away the first ten at cost you might be able to jump start some demand.

You only mention OM 616 and that market canít be very big to begin with. Donít get me wrong it would certainly be a worthy endeavor for someone with the time, talent and resources but your rewards are more likely be self satisfaction rather than remuneration Iím afraid.

There are more than a few threads about fantasy projects like transmission adapters, high flow manifolds and similar projects that have 25 guys saying yeah, yeah, yeah, and in the end no more than one or two who actually will write check when the time comes.
  #4  
Old 01-08-2010, 06:21 AM
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do you have any idea how you want to alter the governor setting?
I mean what will be the result of your adjustment (after swapping elements)?
More power clear, but will the governor keep all the functions?
Or even better can you provide a Bosch instruction with your modification for each setting?

Tom
  #5  
Old 01-08-2010, 08:40 AM
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professional injection pump benches cost over $100,000 for pretty good reasons. trying to build one yourself won't make good results.
  #6  
Old 01-08-2010, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybob View Post
If you are anticipating that you will be doing this for eventual profit I would be very surprised if there is much of a market. There is infinitely more talk about what people could do, would do, want to do, than there is any realistic willingness of the same people to actually pay for something. Now you might get the occasional young punk intent on throwing away the money mommy and daddy give him as subsidized rent, but I'll bet there are damn few adults who will actually pony up the what, $1000 for a blueprinted tuned IP. With all the work you're talking about I can't imagine that you can do it for much less than that. How youíll get people to spring that much for something with no track record will be near impossible Iíd bet! Maybe if it works and you give away the first ten at cost you might be able to jump start some demand.

You only mention OM 616 and that market canít be very big to begin with. Donít get me wrong it would certainly be a worthy endeavor for someone with the time, talent and resources but your rewards are more likely be self satisfaction rather than remuneration Iím afraid.

There are more than a few threads about fantasy projects like transmission adapters, high flow manifolds and similar projects that have 25 guys saying yeah, yeah, yeah, and in the end no more than one or two who actually will write check when the time comes.
I totally agree. Tire kickers don't pay the bills. Any investment will have to be able to provide a return in a reasonable time period.

I would be able to work on any MW IP that has a RW Governor. I have done more 616 IPs because they need all they can get. 5 and 6 cylinder IPs would not be an issue as long as they have the RW governor as that is what I am familiar with.

As for the cost for service, $1000.00 is about right. However, as has been pointed out, I would be new without a track record and as such I was thinking, (without actually looking into the actual machine build/run/maintenance costs), that I would be in the range of $500 to $600 for labor, any parts would be added to that. After I have a proven track record I will be able to justify the higher cost.
  #7  
Old 01-08-2010, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric View Post
professional injection pump benches cost over $100,000 for pretty good reasons. trying to build one yourself won't make good results.
For the sake of discussion, what would you say if that $100,000.00 machine backed up, (confirmed), my work?
  #8  
Old 01-08-2010, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnik View Post
do you have any idea how you want to alter the governor setting?
I mean what will be the result of your adjustment (after swapping elements)?
More power clear, but will the governor keep all the functions?
Or even better can you provide a Bosch instruction with your modification for each setting?

Tom
Tom

My experience has been with 5.5mm Element PIs. My 240 has a bad Element and I want to put 8mm Elements to go with the turbo I have for it. That would be my first working with larger elements. I would combined extrude honed nozzles with the larger elements with the goal to reduce injection dwell and increase fuel atomization at the reduced injection dwell, (pulse width).

The targeted goal, regardless of element size, is improved drivability. To me, drivability is made up of qualities that include, smooth and reliable power, predictable reliable performance, good fuel economy, no/low smoke, good lifespan.

"More power clear, but will the governor keep all the functions?"

Yes, the governor(s) are individually adjustable and yet react to each other to some degree. For example, that is why the idle speed changes when the Torque Control is turned up. After not being able to get my engine to return to idle after following the information available on a few different forums, I took a sep back focusing on how a basic Governor works and visualized what each IP Governor does,(Idle, Torque Control, Max speed), and how it does it in correspondence with the other Governors, and figured out how to adjust the Idle and throttle to allow the Idle governor to do its job after adjusting the Torque Control.

The result is, in the case of a 616, that the dash idle control is not needed, even with the A/C on. Improved bottom end / mid range torque and throttle response, with a stronger high end pull.

The total amount of fuel on the top end is about the same in an effort to keep EGTs in a reasonable range due to the poor VE at high RPMs, but by adjusting the TC, I can shift the fueling curve to allow more fuel at lower speeds, (higher VE), and reduce the reduction curve as PRMs increases.

I have seen some Bosch manuals and I am talking with a pump shop in an effort to get some tools and a copy of a manual. After talking with the pump teck I think the best way to go is take a pump that I tuned up off a car and get some base line measurements. Pull the pump down, put it back together, bench tune, and run it. The only spec that I think is needed from Bosch is the start of injection height. The Governor settings are fueling rate related and I could not find any setting ranges other than stock.

My approach would be to put electronic linear motion sensors on the rack and the injection fueling rate/volume cylinders and monitor RPM. This would allow me to graph the, fueling rate and Rack position, curves in relation to each other and RPM. The idea would be to find the desired injector volume at idle, and full power, (an individual engine/driver specific specification), then adjust the individual governors to get the curve that best fits the drivers drivability expectations. A bonus would be to put the PI on the engine dyno and verify the set up.
  #9  
Old 01-08-2010, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OM616 View Post
For the sake of discussion, what would you say if that $100,000.00 machine backed up, (confirmed), my work?
you're not a bosch-trailed professional, I would never trust your machine.
  #10  
Old 01-09-2010, 12:41 AM
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"Be Wery,Wery careful,Mr. Rabbit."

The OM616 HAS NO Piston Oil Cooling Jet system.
(AND the Cranks are not Nitrided. [or Heat Hardened])

Even with an Intercooler,Pyrometer(With baseline measurements,BEFORE)and
Oil Temperature Gauge...I'd be hesitant to put ANY sort of "Blower" on one.

The "Senzor" setup you intend is remarkably similar to the CDIs,BUT without
ANY control functions.
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  #11  
Old 01-09-2010, 02:11 PM
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So the votes are;

1: For

1: Against

1: Neutral

1: Against putting a turbo on a 240D

I am very interested in Tomnik's thoughts. I would be happy to get them privetly if preferred.

The reality is I have talked to several pump shops in my area and none of them would touch aftermarket elements and their tolerances are not as tight as I would like to see. So I am going to set up my pump with 8mms, probably by spring time. I was just testing to see if it was worth sending the time and money to build a rig.

Voting is still open.
  #12  
Old 01-09-2010, 03:02 PM
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are the 8 mm elements BOSCH or after market?
In case of after market you will not be successful with the set up.
At least all after market elements I have seen are far beyond tolerance which makes it impossible to set up the pump especially when we talk about making things better than stock.
In case you want a single tuned MW for your own use, get in contact with David (Dervtuning) on the other side for the set up, I have the elements 6.5mm diameter.

Tom
  #13  
Old 01-10-2010, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnik View Post
are the 8 mm elements BOSCH or after market?
In case of after market you will not be successful with the set up.
At least all after market elements I have seen are far beyond tolerance which makes it impossible to set up the pump especially when we talk about making things better than stock.
In case you want a single tuned MW for your own use, get in contact with David (Dervtuning) on the other side for the set up, I have the elements 6.5mm diameter.

Tom
As I have greater amounts of time than cash I am going to get some aftermarket elements, then inspect them individually and compare. I imagine when you say "At least all aftermarket elements I have seen are far beyond tolerance which makes it impossible to set up the pump especially when we talk about making things better than stock." that you are taking about the plunger helixes matching which if not identical, would make matching delivery across the full range a compromise at best.

I am planning on modifying the helix to tailor,(reduce), the fueling curve, (per degree of plunger rotation), to allow more rack movement for a given amount of delivery. The goal is to maintain the total rack travel just with a steeper delivery curve due to the increased total volume that I want. Or I would maintaining the same volume as the 5.5mm elements and just shorten the injection time.

Anytime one uses a part or assembly that is made for a different application at best, it becomes a R/D program. Better living through modification. Other than your custom elements, there are no plug and play performance options for the MW IPs, so I was planning on using the aftermarket elements as blanks and modifying them to meet my needs. As a plus they are cheep enough that I can burn a few while developing the process to modify them as I want.

No one really knows who we all are, our background and experience, or what our capabilities are. I personally take no offence when I read a post that says, you can't do that, it will never work. I have found it to be easier to do something if I do not know it can't be done while I am doing it. That way I can focus on the task and not on trying to find the wall of impossibility.

So the proof is in the pudding. As there is no interest, I will not dedicate resources toward building a production rig. First I will get some elements and measure them up to see what I have to work with. I will try to take pictures as I go, but I am not in the habit of that.

Tom, If I have to go with genuine Bosch elements then I would go with yours. The others are so cheap, (for a reason I understand), that I can spend some time to try to get what I want and not feel bad if it doesnít work out. Educations are expensive a friend says.
  #14  
Old 01-11-2010, 01:14 AM
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the issue with after market elements (those I had in my hands at least) is tolerance of manufacturing and bad manufacturing of the edges.
I.e. the edges of the control "grooves" had a radius instead of being sharp.
The reason might be wrong harness while grinding or whatever.
Next tolerances in plunger/barrel matching. Put the plunger in a defined position, fix it in an apparatus and put 350 bar test oil from the high pressure side. Measure the drop down to 250 bar in seconds. Do the same at a different plunger position. You will see that the after market elements are very different among each other. This will result in well adjustable quantity (balanced) for idle and very different quantities in upper ranges. Now you can adjust the high range but it will result in uneven idle quantities. At that point it should be clear that these elements are crap and not worth the time you spend, even when you get the elements for free.
Now you tell me that you intend to modify the control edge, good idea! but the basic quality is already out of reach.
An IP done like that will perform well but idle is horrible (did you hear that somewhere?).
This is not theory I spent a lot of money and time on that and ended up doing my own elements for a good reason.

Tom
  #15  
Old 01-11-2010, 05:54 PM
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Tom,

Thanks for the incite. I would love to pick your brain and get all the information you have gathered and learned through your element development program.

Please understand that I do not intend to imply that I know something that you don't. I appreciate and value your experience in this area and any information that you can provide is greatly appreciated. But I do not want to take advantage (or steal) what you have spent time and money to figure out. I am willing to take my lumps and burn my fingers so to speak.

It you were not making your own elements that would be one thing, however you have a good investment in your program and I do not want you to undermine your potential market share by publishing sensitive technical information.

The Bosch 8mm elements are $220.00 ea here in the USA. I have a couple feelers out for aftermarket ones, however I bet they are all coming from the same place.

As for the leak down rate, if I can get some cheep enough I can test a batch and use 4 that are closest to each other. I will need to build a pressure test rig for that much pressure!

Another thought I had is that with the large dia, the actual used stroke will be very short so the pressurized area in the bore will be concentrated just off idle, so if the barrel leaks down after the used portion of the stroke I would think that should not cause an issue. Like you said, I need to figure the used stroke and pump them up and see how consistent they are to each other.
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