Best hp gains out of a 617
 

Ive heard that the best gains out our beloved 617 s is via the exhaust .The gains by adding a bigger exhaust pipe and have it straight out the back for performance purposes might interest me. I dont mind a little exhaust noise since Im use to my 300cd making a good amount of exhaust noise already.Anyone put this in play on their car yet? and Was it worth the effort?

I haven't done it, but straight through exhaust has been done plenty of times. General consensus, from what I've gleaned, is that 2.5" or 3" mandrel bent exhaust without mufflers is the way to go. Personally, on an otherwise stock motor, I doubt you'll see gains from going 3" over 2.5". This motor just isn't that big. It won't hurt to go bigger, though you'll have an easier time packaging the 2.5" stuff. The biggest contributor will be the mandrel bends versus stock crush bent tubing. Check out the builder kits over at Tube Bending & Fabrication - Columbia River Mandrel Bending.

Not to say that you won't feel a difference, but stock exhaust isn't that bad, anyway. Bang for buck, you'd be better off getting a manual boost controller (ebay it), bump it up to 14psi, ALDA adjust/delete, rack limiter adjust/delete. From anecdotal evidence between different owner's observations, it's good for +20-30 crank hp.

Stock intake and exhaust flows more than you will need without serious fuel and air upgrade.

A test pipe in place of the resonator will take 2 45* bends out of the piping...

Turbo or naturally aspirated?

A blk 83 300cd turbo with euro setup bumper and lights ,this car begs to be lowered a bit.I have a set of 99 clks waiting in the wings.Also have a set of 18" amgs but will need spacers to fit, not excited about using spacers.In doing everything right for performance I believe it will be a vintage eye catcher with alittle bit of rumble for adder.

How much louder does it get without the resonator but retaining the rear muffler?

not much, can still hear the radio

I just cut out my pair of resonators and straight piped a 2.5" 4 foot long section in place of them. It gave it a quite bassy sound and my butt dyno says it really moves from 55-85 mph.
Then again I have only had this 83 300sd for like 5 days, it could have to do with the low sulfur I put in as opposed to the tank of b100 I had run through it

My dyno butt says my straight exhaust, and cold air setup, gave it 15 hp.

Have you got that "dyno-butt" trade marked?

PS from the little I know best improvements from stock seem to be the IP not exhaust.

Have a look at the threads on www.superturbodiesel.com

X2
You can do what you like to the exhaust, fact is that the waste gate limits the amout of air going in & thats it ! With no extra air you can only get a very little extra via increased fuel ~ IP adjustment.
Bigger exhaust gives nothing but noise on a turbo with such a low waste gate setting. I have diesels here (not 617's) that run 25 to 30 # boost all day every day under load. Only restricted by EGT & MAF constraints.
To increase boost by a reasonable amount on a 617 you would probably need to install an inter-cooler like later MB's have.

the 617 is not a hot rod engine its a workhorse.You can drive a 100 mph all day,but not on redline.If your want power switch a 6 cylinder from newer models.

Modest gains are best had by ip tuning. Of course this is assuming fuel pressure, boost pressure, alda, and other basic maintenance have been done.

The added gains in hp would be nice to have ,its not the need for speed but just a desire to improve an avg 300cd at a minimium cost.I cant see why someone hasnt done a build up like this to show improved performance for a 617 ,doesnt sound like the cost would be a big factor . A tuner page with a DIY guide to enhance a 617 and what those cost might be individually.

;)

Cheap Tricks

DON'T PULL THE RACK LIMITER-turn up the pump instead.

no need to remove the rack limiter. No gain over just maxing it out. Max it out if you do not know how to properly tune the ip, but leave it in there in case someone else tunes it properly later. If the governor is not set to go to max fuel then the rack will never reach full travel anyway. You will be surprised at the differance between a nicely tuned pump and just one that had the limiter removed in terms of better drivability.

You gain a few extra mm in rack travel with it out. More than likely you pump needs some new springs for the counter weights and you simply overcame that by removing the limiter.

Turning the elements gave me the most power out of all the mods. Rough running but more power.

Hey Simpler!

Thanks for the link to Cheap Tricks. A lot of these are happening automatically on mine as it moves to the S10 (no exhaust system, for example) and I'll have to think about removing the ALDA and other changes.

Do you know if there's an Ebay (read "CHINESE") turbo that's an appropriate upgrade? Mine needs a rebuild and it might be cheaper to go with a cheapie replacement. What size would I look for (other than a T3 base).

Also - any opinion on putting an intercooler in an ice chest and plumbing the turbo thru it? At the track it's no big deal to add ice before each run.

Thanks
Dan

Taking the rack limiter will not net 40hp. Adjusting torque control and max speed settings in your pump governor just might. After that, a small rack adjustment will be all you need to make your 617 perform as best as it will. As stated earlier, you can find a detailed write up on RW governor settings at the STD forum.

As opposed to cutting DVs or turning elements, these mods will leave your car idling right and not smoking like a chimney.

Sent you a PM, and yes-an ice box for drag runs could help you out.

The max speed governor starts to act on rack travel quite a bit earlier than 4000rpm, for you're information. Removing the rack limiter will not change that.

I have edited this to help clean up this thread.

Regardless of who you may, or may not be, recommending that someone remove components that provide a practical purpose in a Properly Tuned Governor is reckless and irresponsible.

No one drives their car with their foot on the floor all the time, true drivable performance comes from the Torque Control, which when properly adjusted for performance, will require very little Rack Limiter adjustment to reach EGT limit.

A properly "performance" tuned governor will need the rack limiter to get the most "drivable" performance out of it.

There is a very informative doc that I wrote that explains how the RW governor works, many have used it with great success, more so than the other instructions that have been posted that recommend to remove the Rack Limiter.
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Link please!

See if this works;


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QkAv-HFaLqpK_5wKCln6DODkfw_DkjBHVYZXm0nUtEw/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CJXuhs0I&pli=1

Hay 616 -
Want to meet me at the track next Spring and help me set up my pump? I sorta follow the write-up (nothing wrong with the write-up, just the reader) and an experienced hand sure would be appreciated!

The pumps I know anything about were electronics and we sent the computers off the Bosch, who tweaked them to accommodate what we were doing. They didn't want our pinkies in there and wouldn't supply us with the software to mess with them. So what I know about this stuff is "send it over to Bosch" (made many a run to Farmington Hills).

Thanks for the link.

Dan

Farmington is in my back yard so to speak. Where are you coming from?

Even the Bosch training films do not provide enough info to really understand what is going on, only enough info to be able to set it up how they want it. I think that is why some want to argue, as they are basing their statements on the Bosch film strips that have been posted. It is hard to believe, but they really are very crude when it comes to what is going on.

I am sure we can set something up.

Thank you very much - I'm a printin' it out.

I'm retired from the EPA lab in Ann Arbor but have moved to Wilmington NC about 8 years ago - to quote Stevie Ray, "Couldn't stand the weather".

Our track is in Wilmington, Ohio (lots of Wilmingtons, I know). SW of Columbus. First meet next year is the last weekend of April (maybe the 25th. or so - I don't have a calendar for next year). I usually book a double room so I can put you up if you can make the trip. I don't smoke or drink but I DO fart! It's a LOT of fun. Try <ECTA-LSR.com>.

Dan

I am sure we can make it happen, you will have to remind me as I will forget, lol.

Keep in touch.

I must be slacking as someone else picked this up before me.

The best way to sum up this thread is that all the screw turning in the world is only going to get you back to original stock and a few extra HP, can't expect much more. Real power requires more air and more fuel, 5.5 elements are only going to provide so much.

Although it is true that the 5.5mm elements will only supply so much "usable" fuel, the governor starts pulling that fuel off very quickly to keep the emissions down. Delaying the reduction of fuel until a higher RPM will increase the lower end / mid range torque, where 99% of all driving takes place.

The goal is to shift the fueling curve to increase the useable power with in the normal driving ranges. Full power is limited to fuel and air as you stated, which really only matters to a drag racer. The daily driver would benefit from access to more bottom end / mid range power, and the top end power decay can be delayed as well, which will help in passing.

Yes, all of the mods I performed really opened the top end. The tc adjustment was the only one that had a meaningful improvement at the low end.

I'm interested in the top end. Other than warming up and waiting for the starter to flag me on, idle is not of much concern for what I'll be asking this engine to do. Different applications, different needs.

As a newcomer to the forum it's interesting that everyone has a different idea of what "right" is. I guess I'm like that on dyno issues, having 31 1/2 years+ experience in this area. I "know" what works yet lots of people would disagree with me. I'm willing to let anyone mess with the IP tune at the track and we can see what makes the greatest top speed. I'm eager to learn this stuff.

Dan

Be very careful with that attitude my new friend... lol. Those who yell the loudest, usually know the least. Many members have had their eyes opened to this over the past year.

I have had cars brought to me, who’s owners used "other" instructions to adjust the governor with poor results, for me to straighten out.

I did mod a RW governor for a track car where the only governor left was the Idle governor. The Torque Control and Max Speed Governors were eliminated. It was a lot of fun lol.

I would recommend that you read my doc that is linked a few posts above, you will see that I address the idle control issue after "ANY" adjustment.

Any interest in larger elements?

A member on the other forum gained 28hp on his first adjustment, with more fuel left, but he needs more air before he can turn it up any more.

Ignorance sponsors fear, and fear is an attention getter, therefore, ignorance gets the most attention.

I look at it this way, you have two different philosophies for governor adjustment, one is crude, brute force, the other is refined and elegant.

My way allows the max tolerable fueling to be sustained in the power band you want, with better bottom and mid range to pull out of the corners. The other method will over fuel initially and then will fall off quickly, or you will have to get out of the throttle quick due to EGTs, let alone the Idle issues of which there are no instructions on how to correct them.

Now to be clear, I could give a flip who you want to believe, I feel that I have a strong enough track record to have it speak for it's self. Do the reading, ask questions, and make informed decisions, and remember that free advice is usually worth every penny.:P

Please explain the elephants - er - elements. You guys use lots of terms that us MB newcomers don't know. My answer is - If it makes top end power - SURE I'm interested! Please explain.

Dan

LOL...You have a lot of reading to do ;)

The element, (or plunger and barrel), is what pumps the fuel to the injector.

The problem with the small elements (5.5mm) is that the duration of injection increases too much to max them out. Where as with larger elements, more fuel can be delivered in less time, allowing it to be used to make power instead of smoke and high EGTs.

I am probably going to be building a couple MW Superpumps this winter for a select few if you are interested. This would be a pump and nozzle package to keep everything balanced.

We can discuss more privately, PM me if you are interested.

From my experaince removing the rack limiter only gave a small gain. Turning up the torque control gave a much better gain as well as a drivability improvement. By giving more power in the mid range. Return to idle is an improperly adjusted idle control(inside the ip). really needs to be turned in(clockwise) to set a stable idle. It can be set with the engine running to get the idle just right. The outer idle adjustment takes care of return to idle, basically how fast it will return to idle.

By the way set up "purple computers" car today runs nice now, needs an exhaust though.

I would like to thank the moderators for promptly addressing the issue, it is too bad that it was necessary in the first place.

I have gone back edited all my previous posts, deleting any trace of it ( any quoted references).

If everyone who has any reference to the issue in their previous posts, could delete those portions of the post, the thread will be purged of it, and back on track.

How did it turn out?

What did you do to it?

I see that this thread has been edited by the moderators.

I understand that this is because someone who has been banned from the forum posted information under a new user name.

At present I do not know enough information about injector pumps to comment about what was written - and I have a feeling that perhaps more was written whilst I was asleep so I've missed it!

However, I think that the two links that were given in a post that I saw yesterday do contain information that can help others like myself who are still trying to learn about the subject. So here they are:-

Bosch RW Governor Operation

Injection Pump fuel adjustment for the MW and M pumps, pyrometer install - Mercedes Forum - Mercedes Benz Enthusiast Forums

Please note - I am not taking sides.

If anything this is a freedom of the press thing!

I encourage all who wish to learn about a subject to consider differing points of view. Look at what is being said rather than how it is being said.


I have started to play about with a spare IP and I am slowly getting around to taking it to bits - I'm being somewhat delayed by life at the moment - but I plan to start naming parts and pointing stuff out when I learn about it in this thread here =>

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/306090-papas-got-brand-new-om617-ip-play.html

Idle governor - idle spring question for OM616
 

[After reading the text]

Here's a question primarily intended for OM616 - but if anyone else knows please chime in!

In the document posted by OM616 he talks about the idle governor / idle spring and the bump stop and how this should be adjusted...

...this is particularly interesting for me 'cos even though I don't have a 240D my non turbo 300D has the fast idle knob set up as well.


I was wondering why these springs appear not to be set up correctly and that eventually the throttle linkage is used instead. I can see why this is a potential problem - as described by OM616 in his text - as the throttle linkage is fixed and does not adapt.

How come these springs become such a problem? Have they over time just worn out? Or is it a worn engine problem? => So in other words is it most likely a spring problem or a worn engine problem (and the spring was adjusted for a new engine)?

It is a mass production, automatic and manual transmission compatibility issue. The NA cars came with either a manual or auto trans, and the Idle setting for the auto is different than the Manual, (the manual idle speed is more picky).

In order to get each manual trans engine to idle correctly, each car would have to be tuned as it came off the line, not very mass production friendly to say the least.

So they decided to set the idle governor week so it is dependent on the throttle, as, the throttle is outside the pump and is easily adjusted. But as you now know, the throttle dose not modulate, so they added a dash pot that moved the throttle a touch to help with cold idle and accessory usage, and if you have one with a manual trans and forget that it is turned up, the engine will race when you step on the clutch while the load is gone or the engine is warmed up.

When they went to the turbo motors, at least 99% were automatics, so the idle setting is more forgiving, they set it on the stronger side and let it go. More mass production friendly.

It is just a matter of doing the fine tuning the factory did not. Additionally, these pumps are slammed together by several people, (mass Production), and each person will tend to set things up favoring one one end of the tolerance or the other, that is why one car will really run good and another is a real dog.

Does that answer your question, or did I miss understand what you were asking.

oh I turned some screws and it still ran.....

It turned out nice, gave him one turn on torque control, a little on rack limiter, maxed out full speed, and the inside idle was stuck. So had to remove the screw with stuck nut on it, repaired and put back in, so no idea were it was so started it holding the throttle by hand and turned idle in until I had a nice idle. then of reset the outer idle. His is manual so set it for good shifting. Boost is maxing at 10 psi now, waste gate was holding it back at 9 psi, readjusted now. egt's get to 1250 in a 0-70 mph run. So really did not want to push any higher. He is a bit of a full throttle driver, does drive well though. Did also ream pc's out .010, and he had some rebuilt injectors we put in. Did repair the air cleaner mount (missing tab on intake manifold, as well as crack metal frame for eht ebase of the air cleaner) and put a proper one back on instead of the sewer pipe filter, so fresh air from outside now.

That's great - thanks.

Here's a different twist on a similar subject - I'm still trying to get my head around this =>


Assuming the stiffness of the spring stays constant and that it does not weaken over time (I don't know how accurate that assumption is) do you think that a worn engine would have an effect on idle - or would you consider the effects of a worn engine (low compression - due to what ever) to be more pronounced in the higher rev range? Essentially - how dependant are the fine tuning of IP settings on engine condition?

FYI
 

Please do not inject yourself into the problem.

Lance = Forcedinduction is banned forever.

Reasons:
# Attacking webmaster.
# Attacking website.
# Attacking moderators.
# Attacking members.


.

Everything relates to the engine condition, that includes Idle, timing, and how much fuel it can tolerate.

It is not reasonable to expect the settings for a new engine to be correct for one with 200K on it.

Please let me make myself clear - I am not being critical about what the moderators have done or why they have done it - that's something for the moderators and not for me. I have every faith in the moderators and the job they do on this forum.

I just didn't want additional information to be lost from the discussion. There's very little of it about.

I think so too. Well it seems reasonable to me.

I guess that with these mechanical IPs there is always going to be a compromise between the IP settings and engine capability if they can not be adjusted on the fly.

Has anyone ever thought of using more modern IPs with electronics / electrical systems that allow remote adjustment?

I've often wondered if it is possible to improve fuel economy / performance of an old engine design by the use of modern day electronic systems.

Definitely, that's why some people weld fuel injector bungs on old V8s and run megasquirt :)

The trouble with these is building an injection system-theoretically it's possible but the cost is going to be prohibitively high. As I understand it, it would be easier to get an electronic engine and start there.