|
|
|
|
|
#1
09-06-2004, 11:05 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Would anyone here pay for a 617 intercooler kit?
Hey Y'all,
My name is Jim Royston and I'm a newbie here but not in general. I have learned A LOT here in the past few weeks! I run a parts biz catering to VW TDI drivers and I recently bought an '82 300SD for cheap. My family had a '79 and '81 SD when I was in high school and so I really like Benzes. I had forgotten the King of the Road feeling until I started driving this car a coupla weeks ago. The car has been fun to work on and has needed many little fixes just to get it roadworthy. I have done motor mounts and shocks, adjusted the Garrett wastegate and Alda, fixed the power window lifters, and added a neat little boost gauge to the spot where the wonky clock used to go. I am gonna pull the injectors this week and have them checked and replace them if necessary. After all of the basics are done, I'm going to dyno the car to get a baseline reading since I want more power! I figure an engine this big can make 150/250tq to the ground EASY with just an intercooler and bumping up the boost and fuel enrichment. I have the intercooler already and it's an off the shelf salvage yard (cheap) part and is quite large in frontal area. It is sized for an engine in the 200hp range. My question to y'all is this: If I come up with all of the little pieces to make this relatively common intercooler work on the '81-'85 126's and 123's, would anybody be interested at about $400 for the ancillary parts? This would be brackets, hardware, pipes but no intercooler. The intercooler would be sourced by you and I have two of them I bought for $75 each. I wouldn't make a setup for the 603 engined 126 or 124, at least not initially. I love the 617's ubiquity, durability, and lack of hop-up parts aftermarket. If I blow one up it's pretty cheap to put in another engine and my CNC machinist has already told me that he could probably machine the stock used piston's combustion chamber for lower static compression for running big boost/fuel. Comments/opinions? I know I'm new here but I can complete the project AND provide dyno charts to compliment the mods. Jim dieselgeek.com 
|
|
#2
09-06-2004, 11:45 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
617 intercooler
The idea of an intercooler for the 617 certainly sounds intriguing. However, the selection of the intercooler will mandate the selection of the miscellanous fittings, brackets, connections, etc.
My advice is to start with an intercooler and provide the entire plug and play package for either/or the 123 or 126 bodies. The cost will be higher than the $400. that you mentioned, however, a fully functional, bolt in intercooler kit for one of these engines is worth considerably more than $400. IMHO. The benefit of not taking on a development project to install the damn thing is worth the additional expense.
|
|
#3
09-06-2004, 12:01 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Most of the guys here are into reliability, ease of fixing, and finding stock parts at the best prices they can......
There was an intercooler offered by Ben Ridge I think.... but we did not see a-b comparisons of the power or whatever on the same engine with and without it... other changes were made which made it impossible to judge what effect the intercooler had in and of itself.... Most of us just want our cars as simple and reliable as possible.. and there is no way I would add something not stock to mine... but I am old and mechanically conservative...
|
|
#4
09-06-2004, 12:19 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Brian,
The setup that I am going to do for my personal car will be based on a specific, widely available OEM intercooler. New custom intercoolers cost too much in my opinion. If I were to make a batch of the same mounting parts that made my car run then the kit would be based on this same OEM intercooler. There would be no point in me buying up the supply of used intercoolers to send them with my kit. My kit would work with the specific off the shelf part and would be perfectly complete otherwise. This would give the end user the option of buying the intercooler new if they were sqeamish about using a used intercooler. The kit would be also cheaper if I did not have to source the used intercoolers and ship them. The kit would work for 123 or 126 617 engines. Instructions would be a large part of the "product". The $400 target would prolly put the total cost at around $600 since you would have to rework oil lines to relocate the oil cooler to a position in front of the A/C condenser. It's in the way... As an aside, for a theory I had, I removed the engine driven cooling fan blade and the car is fine without it as long as A/C isn't used. I saw 95C after sitting through two traffic lights after an 80mph highway cruise but other than that, the coolant temp sticks to 80C without the fan mounted to the engine. I'm sure the tstat is getting to it's fully open point without the fan. It seems a waste to turn that fan all of the time. I'll probably get an electric fan if I feel I need some more cooling...The engine is smoother without it undoubtedly. I'm guessing that the intercooler will reduce the coolant temps even more...unless I'm using the power. All this in the name of science. Jim dieselgeek.com Quote:
|
|
#5
09-06-2004, 12:49 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
This would be acceptable. It would be of interest to know the cost of the brand new unit and the estimated cost and availability of a used unit. To make the conversion worthwhile, as Greg has pointed out, it would be of of vital interest to know, in detail, the performance of the vehicle, at specific boost pressures and EGT's prior to, and after, the kit was installed. To make proper use of the kit is going to require an adjustment to the full load delivery screw on the IP. This is a bit of a task on the 617 and requires the removal of the oil filter housing for access. This adjustment must be quantified and verified by the developer otherwise each individual purchaser is back into a research project. You don't want to install an $800. kit and gain .5 seconds in 0-60 times.
|
|
#6
09-06-2004, 01:04 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Since Diesels run cooler than gas engines anyway.... and I have not seen anyone saying that the combustion would be better with cooler input air... I really don't understand what one would be looking for as a benefit from an intercooler.... On our old Diesels.... usually that much money would be better spent on a valve job or such basic stuff.... ( IMO )....
|
|
#7
09-06-2004, 01:28 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Greg, the benefit is only the capability to introduce more fuel into the engine while maintaining the same exhaust temperature limit. This allows the engine to put out more horsepower and thereby reduce the acceleration times.
How much of a reduction in ET is the real question. BTW, none of this is in the FSM, so, you, Greg, are SOL 
|
|
#8
09-06-2004, 02:13 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
I am SOL ANYWAY.....
How about this... shooting for the bigger picture... to be revealed by your truthfull answers... 1. When was the last time you raced someone.... ANYone.. ?
|
|
#9
09-06-2004, 02:23 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Leathermang,
On a TDI engine or any forced induction engine, cool mornings yield stunning performance gains since the intercoolers are so effective. Cooler air means more molecules to burn. There's power to be had in making the charge air cooler. I had a TDI in my Corrado that had 130hp and 230 ft/lbs. of torque. I know a 3.0 engine can make more than this with an extra 1100cc's. An intercooler gets rid of heat that would otherwise get force fed into the engine which would make the engine last longer. Read this: http://www.allardturbosport.co.uk/pages/turbo_diesel_special_tuning.htm Also, I'm not out to race anyone with a 3800 pound car. I have a faster car for that but I don't care to race. All I want is for my cruiser to be able to get around stupid people hanging in the left lane. The car as it is is too slow for this and so I want to unleash it's true potential without damaging it. Jim dieselgeek.com Quote:
|
|
#10
09-06-2004, 02:27 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Of course this has all been gone through in the archives...
but just for the record I think that fuel has to be increased with that ( very slight) additional air getting in for any extra power to be produced....and once you tweak the injection pump then it is hard to quantify what effects the intercooler has BY ITSELF.....
|
|
#11
09-06-2004, 02:32 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
And I think that all those TDI engines had millions of dollars of Research and DEvelopment money poured into them.... AND the engine and fuel system was designed together to take advantage of the intercooler....
Very different from taking some old style fuel injection type engines with 200,000 plus miles on them and then adding an intercooler...and being able to figure out what good or bad effects the specific installation caused.... But remember, I am just putting out old mechanically conservative thoughts for the readers which might come across this and not realize there may be other physical laws which may or may not be properly utilized by the equipment being touted....
|
|
#12
09-06-2004, 02:44 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
The intercooler alone would be kinda useless to me without a pump adjustment and a boost increase to perhaps 14 pounds. The point of this thread is to gauge whether I should just do this work for myself as quickly as I can or make it pretty for anyone else who would want to pay for a kit. I just want to know if there's a market for safe 150hp to the ground at around $600 and some of your valuable time.
Jim dieselgeek.com Quote:
|
|
#13
09-06-2004, 03:02 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
I raced a full sized Chevy van just about three weeks ago with the SDL. It seems that this a**hole decides that I am going too slow (30 mph in a 30 limit) and figures he will pass me on a highway that is a commercial thoroughfare with no passing over its entire length (more than 30 miles). Well, he pulls out to pass and I let the SDL go in third gear from 30 mph. He never had a chance and was richly rewarded with a cloud of diesel exhaust for his efforts. Sorry to tell you, Greg, it was very satisfying. 150 hp on the ground would let the SD do the same thing!
|
|
#14
09-06-2004, 03:12 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
If you spend millions of dollars, you can optimize the fuel delivery at part throttle settings to take advantage of the cooler air, and thereby offer some additional part throttle torque at lower rpm's, however, this is not the intent of the kit. The kit will allow additional fuel at maximum power without causing a corresponding increase in exhaust temperatures. My only concern, and one that should be addressed early in the game, is whether the 617 IP has sufficient adjustment of the full load screw to increase the fuel delivery by 25% at maximum power. If not, then the entire kit is a waste of time and money.
|
|
#15
09-06-2004, 03:16 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
No rocket science here. The intercooler will reduce the charge air temperature and reduce the exhaust temperature. That's it. The ET of the vehicle will be unchanged when before and after numbers are compared. This must be the case because your fuel delivery at maximum power has remained unchanged, so, how can you possibly get any other result?
|
 |
| Bookmarks |
|
|
Linear Mode
