How professional mechanics figure their labor time - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

D240 · #46 04-17-2005, 11:17 AM

I've been doing this for a living for a long time. I'm now working in my first flat rate shop. I'm an ASE Master Certified technician with $9,000 invested in TOOLS not including boxes. I support my wife and 2 boys on my income. I regularly beat flat rate, my average productivity is 140%, my comeback rate is ZERO !.
Comebacks are done on your own time, free. The extra money you make pays for tools, insurance against comebacks, bleeding, pain, and more knowledge.

Our shop has the best techs in town and it's difficult for us to hire in more. No one wants to work for flat rate because they would have to work. The average productivity in a good shop is 75%. Can you imagine having to pay your help for a 40 hour week when they can only produce 32 hours ? Now pay that out to the entire shop and give them regular raises for their substandard performance.

Flat rate is an effective way to increase efficieancy and quality of workmanship. Of course there are always exceptions.

D240 · #47 04-17-2005, 11:22 AM

Oh, and I forgot the school. I spend at least 2 weeks a year in school. The cost to the shop for putting me there every year is $5,000 for each school. Our shop budget is $80k per year for training. That for the 12 techs that stay there.

aklim · #48 04-17-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

However, to bring you back on topic, we were discussing repairs by a mechanic. If one mechanic agrees to change a water pump for 8 hours labor and another agrees to change the pump for 5 hours labor, you are still getting the same product in the end, in theory. The man who charges 8 hours labor may get the job done in 5 hours and pocket the remainder. The man who gets the job done in 5 hours is charging exactly the time that it took.

You would be foolish to simply dismiss the lower price to change the water pump, simply because the price is 60% of book, IMHO.

OK. I'll ask this: WHY? Why would you go to 60% of what every other shop does? I know I might go to 95%, lets say but I definately will not go to 60%. So, I am having a hard time trying to fathom out why anyone else would. Now, if it is a startup shop trying to draw in customers, I understand. You would be right that it is a better price IF they are both doing quality work. However, I still am suspicious as to why anyone would do it. When I didn't ahve the facities to do it, I farmed out an intake manifold job. The guy basically lowballed everyone else by 40%. Didn't make it home and the gasket blew out because it was not sealed right. Too much silicone and not enough torque on the bolts. This experience and many more in many different realms make me distrustful of too good a deal.

My problem is that I have had too many deals that looked good but turned out bad. Often, I found my butt sore and I didn't even get a reach around and there is a brown stain on the matteress when I accept these good deals. That is why I am suspicious. I tend to be cynical of human beings which is why I would rather stick with what the average rate is. Yes, sometimes I will lose out but so far, I have been ahead in the long run.

aklim · #49 04-17-2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D240

Our shop has the best techs in town and it's difficult for us to hire in more. No one wants to work for flat rate because they would have to work. The average productivity in a good shop is 75%. Can you imagine having to pay your help for a 40 hour week when they can only produce 32 hours ? Now pay that out to the entire shop and give them regular raises for their substandard performance.

Flat rate is an effective way to increase efficieancy and quality of workmanship. Of course there are always exceptions.

I don't follow. Why would you pay for 40 hrs when you get 32? I thought the job paid book time which means that you get paid by the job? If the water pump takes 10 hrs to do and you do it in 12, you get paid for 10. or do they have a gauranteed number of hours?

boneheaddoctor · #50 04-17-2005, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

I don't follow. Why would you pay for 40 hrs when you get 32? I thought the job paid book time which means that you get paid by the job? If the water pump takes 10 hrs to do and you do it in 12, you get paid for 10. or do they have a gauranteed number of hours?

I assume it to mean there are periods of no cars in line for service.........

phantoms · #51 04-17-2005, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

I don't follow. Why would you pay for 40 hrs when you get 32? I thought the job paid book time which means that you get paid by the job? If the water pump takes 10 hrs to do and you do it in 12, you get paid for 10. or do they have a guaranteed number of hours?

I think he was referring to working in shops where the average mechanic will turn 32 book hours a week and could you imagine having to pay him an hourly salary for the 40 hour week when he only turned 32 book hours.

On the lawsuit comment regarding doctors, shops have to deal with lawsuits too. Usually they go out of their way to fix complaints whether warranted or not to avoid these lawsuits, but there are some customers that you can't please no matter what.

As to Craftsman boxes being the same as Snap-On, maybe the lower line of Snap-on and Mac boxes, but the more expensive boxes put the Craftsman boxes to shame just as there tools do.

aklim · #52 04-17-2005, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

I assume it to mean there are periods of no cars in line for service.........

I know that shops here on slow weeks generally have no hours to flag. Some might flag about 10-15 if there is nothing going on. further incentive for them to beat book time when they can

Johnhef · #53 04-17-2005, 05:39 PM

I'd love to get some money back on tools from taxes. Unfortunatly that doesnt happen, at least not in this state. I got zero back last year. I did hear however You have to spend $4,000 a year on tools for this to happen. I only had $2900. rats.

I typically only charge $40 an hour here for stuff I do at home. On occasion if I'm comfortable with a job, I'll just charge what sounds fair to me. For instance in a week or two I'll have a waterpump to do on a 103 engine. The guy lets me get parts for my junk from his yard from time to time so I told him I'd do it for $150. normally, $40 x 6.5hrs would have cost him $260 for labor alone.

Same deal on these new C-Class (01-02) with climate servo motor problems. Book time is near 14 hours to do one of them (remove dash, etc) under warranty. For out of warranty cars I only charge 2 hours because I can do them in a much shorter amount of time due to shortcuts I've figured out. 1 hour (standard) for diagnosis and 1 hour to do the repair. Warranty time for the dash is 4+ hours alone, take that x1.4 for COD price. This way the customer gets a huge decrease in price and I don't screw myself on the time if I run into a snag. Seems pretty fair to me.

Brian Carlton · #54 04-17-2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnhef

alone.

Same deal on these new C-Class (01-02) with climate servo motor problems. Book time is near 14 hours to do one of them (remove dash, etc) under warranty. For out of warranty cars I only charge 2 hours because I can do them in a much shorter amount of time due to shortcuts I've figured out. 1 hour (standard) for diagnosis and 1 hour to do the repair.

John, would you be kind enough to answer Aklim's question posed in post #48:

If the book rate for the job is 14 hours, why would you charge a customer only 2 hours time for the job?

You see, Aklim doesn't trust a mechanic such as yourself. He would rather pay 14 hours labor for a 2 hour job because he understands the human motivation to screw people out of money at every opportunity.

Johnhef · #55 04-17-2005, 11:08 PM

If he wants to pay me 14 hours to do it, I sure as hell wouldn't turn him down!

I only would charge that because I typically can get the entire thing done in 30 minutes, taking my time and pretty much doing everything the right way. I wouldn't feel right charging them any more than that.

I see you guys have your beef going on at the moment that I don't want to jump into but I will say Aklim's posts crack me up

He does have a point though. I seem to find myself in a moral dilemma quite often. The guy next to me (mechanic for 20 years, he's done everything from aftermarket to rolls royce) has to remind me that I can't let the amount the shop charges let me determine what I charge for the job. When it's all said and done, my take of that hour's work is pretty minute, maybe $10-12 after taxes, healthcare, etc. I shouldn't always charge the lesser amount at the dealer, but at home, with no taxes and only my spare time to waste, I don't mind charging less than book.

MTUpower · #56 04-17-2005, 11:22 PM

I guess you experienced mechanics figure out things the manufacturers cant- like how to do a job in half the time- or even a 14 hour job in 1/2 hour. How bout the oil pump job- book says remove engine- do you really think they did not figure out a way to do the job without removing the engine- or it that just you folks with snap on boxes? Gimme a break on this I'm way smarter and more experienced and bought 60 grand in tools than the average other guy out there who turns wrenches. BTW please tell me how a snap on 15/16 open end wrench performs better than a husky or craftsman. Yes ball bearing boxes have smooth opening drawers... how does that cut down on the time to do a job? I understand some tools need to be higher end and others are job specific. Also- guess who pays for the courses you take as a tech? The taxpayers- it's a business expense, and as such it's a tax deduction. Same with your tools- its a business expense- if you haven't written them off, stop doing your taxes by yourself and get a professional to do them for you. Guess what I do for a living...I"M A MECHANIC.( at least until last week... now I'm going back to captain/engineer/mechanic/mate/chief toilet cleaner

)

aklim · #57 04-17-2005, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnhef

If he wants to pay me 14 hours to do it, I sure as hell wouldn't turn him down!

I only would charge that because I typically can get the entire thing done in 30 minutes, taking my time and pretty much doing everything the right way. I wouldn't feel right charging them any more than that.

I see you guys have your beef going on at the moment that I don't want to jump into but I will say Aklim's posts crack me up

I basically said that if the shop is way too low compared with everyone else, I am suspicious because every time I have gone with anyone that way too low, I tend to get shafted. I tend to ask "Why are you so good to me" and generally, I get answers that I don't like. So, you can see that when something is way too good, I tend to distrust it. Like I said, somewheres in the middle, give or take a bit, yes. Way too much one way or the other and I am suspicious. Yes, I confess to a suspicious nature.

Now, if I knew you personally, that might be different.

Glad it provided amusement for you. Unfortunately, at this time, I have no beef with BC. Just bantering back and forth. At least on my part.

Brian Carlton · #58 04-17-2005, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

OK. I'll ask this: WHY? Why would you go to 60% of what every other shop does? I know I might go to 95%, lets say but I definately will not go to 60%. So, I am having a hard time trying to fathom out why anyone else would. Now, if it is a startup shop trying to draw in customers, I understand. You would be right that it is a better price IF they are both doing quality work. However, I still am suspicious as to why anyone would do it. When I didn't ahve the facities to do it, I farmed out an intake manifold job. The guy basically lowballed everyone else by 40%. Didn't make it home and the gasket blew out because it was not sealed right. Too much silicone and not enough torque on the bolts. This experience and many more in many different realms make me distrustful of too good a deal.

I believe that we are talking about two different types of people.

1) An individual with limited skills, limited tools and limited knowledge who works out of his garage. I would put myself in this category. So, if I want to do a job for someone, I might give them a price that would give me a day's pay. Say I charge $200.00 for the day. I'm OK with this. Now the going rate is 6 hours labor by the book. I might not get it done in 8 hours, but, I'll bust my ass to get it finished in one day. I'm happy with the $200.00. The quality of the work may be acceptable. On the other hand, it might not be acceptable because I'm not a professional in the true sense of the word.

These are the people you wish to avoid.

2) An individual who has a high degree of skill and works as a professional mechanic. Johnhef falls into this category. Now, if he owns a shop and he has developed procedures and/or practices to cut the book time from 10 hours down to 5 hours, he makes a decision to charge you a price depending on his personal feelings on the matter. He doesn't go out and take a poll of competing shops to determine if they are all charging 10 hours. He can easily do the job in five hours, so, he decides to charge you 7 hours for the job. The quality of the work is identical to that for which you would have recieved if you went to a dealer or another indy and they charged you the full 10 hours. Why did he charge you only 7 hours? Well, he is of the opinion that this amount of money is a fair price. Now, we know that you don't trust this individual because you have lumped him in with the mechanic up in the first paragraph.

Your problem is that you are unable to discern the difference between the mechanic in the first paragraph and the mechanic in the second paragraph, so, you go out and pay retail rates and are happy about it so that you don't get screwed.

In reality, whether you get screwed or not has little to do with the price charged. It has everything to do with the skills and knowledege of the technician. Many, many people pay book rates at the dealer and get very shoddy work. A high price is no guarantee of proper performance.

Johnhef · #59 04-17-2005, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

I guess you experienced mechanics figure out things the manufacturers cant- like how to do a job in half the time- or even a 14 hour job in 1/2 hour.

This is why manufacturers offer incentives such as $500 to their techs for telling them easier ways to do the jobs, so they can cut the times. That 14 hour job used to pay 19, then 17 hours. I have a feeling im going to see it drop drasticaly in the near future. Too many people know about the shortcuts now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

How bout the oil pump job- book says remove engine- do you really think they did not figure out a way to do the job without removing the engine- or it that just you folks with snap on boxes? Gimme a break on this I'm way smarter and more experienced and bought 60 grand in tools than the average other guy out there who turns wrenches. BTW please tell me how a snap on 15/16 open end wrench performs better than a husky or craftsman. Yes ball bearing boxes have smooth opening drawers... how does that cut down on the time to do a job? I understand some tools need to be higher end and others are job specific. Also- guess who pays for the courses you take as a tech? The taxpayers- it's a business expense, and as such it's a tax deduction. Same with your tools- its a business expense- if you haven't written them off, stop doing your taxes by yourself and get a professional to do them for you. Guess what I do for a living...I"M A MECHANIC.( at least until last week... now I'm going back to captain/engineer/mechanic/mate/chief toilet cleaner

)

Do my taxes by myself? the hell you say? I dont trust myself nor care to deal with stuff like that. $160 to a professional and its all nice and neat and off to the IRS.

I do have a snap on box (flimsy piece of junk, but nice sliding drawers!) and quite a bit of their tools, only because they had a combo offer when I first got into wrenching. Most of my high dollar tools are MB specific crap. Everything since then has been craftsman or harbor freight or whatever else was cheap. I've got a nice piece of ____ box at home, drawers dont slide worth a crap, beat to hell (when it arrived brand new) and not a single snap on/matco/mac tool in it.

aklim · #60 04-17-2005, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

I believe that we are talking about two different types of people.

1) An individual with limited skills, limited tools and limited knowledge who works out of his garage. I would put myself in this category. So, if I want to do a job for someone, I might give them a price that would give me a day's pay. Say I charge $200.00 for the day. I'm OK with this. Now the going rate is 6 hours labor by the book. I might not get it done in 8 hours, but, I'll bust my ass to get it finished in one day. I'm happy with the $200.00. The quality of the work may be acceptable. On the other hand, it might not be acceptable because I'm not a professional in the true sense of the word.

These are the people you wish to avoid.

2) An individual who has a high degree of skill and works as a professional mechanic. Johnhef falls into this category. Now, if he owns a shop and he has developed procedures and/or practices to cut the book time from 10 hours down to 5 hours, he makes a decision to charge you a price depending on his personal feelings on the matter. He doesn't go out and take a poll of competing shops to determine if they are all charging 10 hours. He can easily do the job in five hours, so, he decides to charge you 7 hours for the job. The quality of the work is identical to that for which you would have recieved if you went to a dealer or another indy and they charged you the full 10 hours. Why did he charge you only 7 hours? Well, he is of the opinion that this amount of money is a fair price. Now, we know that you don't trust this individual because you have lumped him in with the mechanic up in the first paragraph.

Your problem is that you are unable to discern the difference between the mechanic in the first paragraph and the mechanic in the second paragraph, so, you go out and pay retail rates and are happy about it so that you don't get screwed.

In reality, whether you get screwed or not has little to do with the price charged. It has everything to do with the skills and knowledege of the technician. Many, many people pay book rates at the dealer and get very shoddy work. A high price is no guarantee of proper performance.

You're right. Just because you pay more doesn't mean you will get better work. Yes, if I could pick them apart, I would go for the one with better track records. However, everyone always claims their work is top quality and they are the greatest. What I am saying is that if 10 shops all charge $10 and one particular one charges $5, I want to know why. This is if I don't know any of them.

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