a 450 is a 117 motor with iron block i think. i dont know of a 560sl with stick. since i have seen the earlier cars like 350 and i think 450sls with sticks i figured that the later cars would have had them in europe too but most folks say the later cars NONE of the al v8s ever were offered with a stick. i still harbor the idea that a few may have been made but no evidence. i did however see a 420 s class offered for sale with a stick a couple of years ago out west nevada i think. i dont know if it was for real or not. people often advertise things for sale and when you call and ask more specific quesiotns they arent what the ad says. like i have called on maybe six 240s for sale as five speeds and when i asked them to go look at the shifter they come back and say oh it is a four speed.

so anyway if you could find a stick 350sl or 450 the bell hous and such may bolt right to a 560 or whatever.

good luck, i hope you find one.

tom w

yeah, I was talking about the '117 swap in particular. If the 450 was also in the same family of engines, the trans would have to at least be a lot closer of a match than the trans from an m102 190e. The time period when the manual euro 560 SL supposedly was offered was like '79-80 or somewhere around there.....so pretty early on....and maybe the guy who told me was mistaken when he said 560, and really meant 450SL. Either way, he claims to have done this swap a couple of times in the past, and this was the trans that he said they used. He also said that they used a w126 driveshaft which was cut down and retreated (i assume) to fit the 201 chassis. Reason being that the 190e driveshaft couldn't take the additional torque. Not sure if there is any truth to this, but that was what I was told. It seems kind of like in cutting the driveshaft, you would likely weaken it beyond the point of it being useful (vs. the stock 190e shaft). Any thoughts??

You are saying that he used a stick from a early 560, year 1979 or 1980, but back then the M117 560 engine was on the drawing board. I think the 560 (SEC, SE or Sl) wasnt sold until about 1986 or 1987.

That just cannot be true.

Maybe a 450 iron (?) block manual will bolt to a m119.......MAYBE
Maybe the flywheel too....Maybe

If not, go on customizing it all. In the end you probably have done the same amount of work, and you have a (very hard to find in the first place) 5 speed gearbox fitted to a V8.

I'd rather take a bigger step, and go for a 6speed from the beginning.

Did a search on www.mobile.de
 

For a 500 SL (any type) with manual: 20 hits
A couple of 129 and a couple later type's, all saying in the ad: manual
Checked the pictures of the interior: all automatic boxes

Looked for a 420SL with manual: no hits
Also no hits for a 380 SL with manual.
560 SL with manual: no hits

www.mobile.de is the biggest site (its german)for 2nd hand Mercedesses in Europe.

A ORIGINAL 80's Mercedes V8 with manual is i think the same as the Yeti: a lot of people heard of them, but no-one has seen them in real life, up close.

450 SL with manual: no hits

hmmm......well that isnt very promising. I am looking to use an m117, not an m119, so if one were around it should be more straighforward, but looks like it might be a dead end. And yeah, I got to thinking about the time frame when there was a 560 SL offered and it didn't really make sense. So he must have been talking about a 450 or something.....were those search results for european market cars or NA?

search was for european(german mostly) market cars.
But, also no 450 with manual.......

Anyway, yesterday i was at the local BMW dealer, and asked about the flywheel of the e39 M5, but it is, as i thought, a 2-mass flywheel.
So definately i will have to make my own flywheel.

did you check to see if the 280 flywheel will fit? how many bolts does the fw have?

i have an extra one from a 280sl euro. not sure what year.

tom w

Wow ... nice thread! My attempt to get info & involvement for doing a manual tranni mod of my car got -no- love on this board a good while back...:rolleyes: I was interested in doing the Tremec TKO tranni. Major props to you on this project! :bowrofl:

A Question. Wondering why not use a M113 engine like you have in your C43 in your W201 project? (I have one, a longblock, if you would want one)

Why would I do that?
-A 280 flywheel probably does not have the same bolt pattern
-even if it does: does it has the correct starter gear?
-even if that is also the same: I have to customize it also, because i need a BMW clutch on it.

What I mean to say: A 280 flywheel probably has the same amount of specs that i DONT have to alter, as a flywheel from a John Deere tractor: none.


Anyway, right now im in the process of measuring carefully the bolt pattern of a m119. Made some 'tools' and bolts to do this.
After that, it's the BMW tranny's turn.
And then lay these patterns up on one another, and find out what is the best way to match tranny and engine.

well,

you might check because you knew that the euro 280 has more power than a whole lot of mb v8s, or you might check because you knew that mb has a trememdous amount of interchangalbe parts across model lines such as brakes from the s class that bolt onto 190s and flywheel sizes and starter positions, or you might check because you just didnt know any better, or you might even check because you knew a lot.

goodbye.

tom w

I get the feeling that you are a bit offended by me. Sorry if thats the case.

What you say is true: mercedes makes parts that go on different models. Usually though, only brake, suspension, electronic stuff, that kind of thing.
But comparing a 185 bhp (euro) 280 engine, which originally was drawn in the early sixties (maybe late fifties), with a 326 bhp V8 of the late seventies, for me is to much of a long shot.
If I had a 280 flywheel lying around i would definately have compared it with the m119 crank, but that isnt the case. In fact, ANY make flywheel that i would have lying around of about the same size i would have compared.

But why are you hammering on that 280 'wheel? do you know more about that than me? do you know people who used it in similar projects?

again, no offence.

My educated guess would say your not going to find a flywheel from another Merc that will mesh properly. I would suggest looking into having a custom flywheel fabricated from stock parts.
Check out this guy; http://www.jbracing.com/flywheel-porscheul1.php
It looks like they could definately come up with a solution. I have never personally delt with these guys but thier work looks good.

The main reason is just the similarity of engines....both use CIS fuel injection, both are from basically the same era, with similar auxillaries as far as I can tell. The m113 would be awesome, but I think I may have a lot more trouble dealing with such a computerized engine. Also, I like the idea of the m117's tuneability. Correct me if I'm wrong though.....as that would be a pretty crazy swap as well

An easy fix for it all....
 

Have a flywheel made by SPEC in Birmingham, Alabama with a 10.5" Ford or
11" Chev bolt pattern and use a ring gear from a MB flexplate. Then find an old AT tranny to tear apart for the case, cut the back off and save the bellhousing area.
Machine that flat and weld a 3/4-1" plate to the housing and machine it to accept whatever tranny you want to use. You can then use your OE starter in the proper position and an inexpensive, easy to find clutch parts...in fact use the SPEC clutch, they're great. I use one in my 354"/ 440hp 190!! Pedal clusters are easy to come by and use a hydraulic TO bearing such as McLeod or Tilton.
This is the way that Sainz trannys from S. America are used/mounted in SCCA race cars.

Good luck,
TobiasMB
190-/5.8