More 190e V8 swap questions
 

I posted this in the 190e/V8 thread, but I think it got lost in some of the replies about Tobias' 190. Anyhow, I had some questions regarding an MB V8 swap into the w201....

I've been looking at either getting a hold of a 5.0 m119, or a 5.6 m117 for the swap. The car is a '91 2.6 BTW....basically, I'm just curious which one would be more feasible. From what I can tell, the '117 has a few advantages over the 119

-cheaper
-more readily available from recycling yards, ebay, etc
-uses old injection system (CIS-E right?)

but then the 119 has some advantages too

-more power (probably the biggest thing)
-more efficient intake/airbox

I'm a mechanical engineering student so I think that I have a pretty good grasp on a lot of the technical stuff, but I would like to stay away from anything that will require a ton of fabrication. People have mentioned that the steering box had to be swapped out in favor of a rack/pinion system.....although I could do that if necissary, it would be preferrable not to. Does anyone know anything about an MB V8 swap into the w201, and how much fabrication and general banging around would be involved?

Also, does anyone have any idea what a good manual transmission would be for either of these engines? (5 or 6 spd only....not a fan of 4-spd)

Right now I'm leaning towards getting the m117 and possibly building it up at some later date....

Thanks for any help that anyone can offer!!

Right now I'm considering using the 5-spd Getrag from a 190e-16v just because I know it will fit in my trans tunnel w/o modification. I've done some research on the trans itself, and I figure that I would not overload it. Obviously the assembly is for a 4 cyl engine, but do you think that I would be able to modify the bell housing so that it would mate to the m117? Anyone have any ideas??

Quick answer time!

I've currently got an M117 5.0 V8 sat in my 190e 2.6. It's physically bolted in, but not 'plumbed in' yet. It clears the steering box, manifolds will have to be fabricated, you need to alter the metalwork surrounding the brake servo a little (although with mine being RHD, if yours is LHD, it might be slightly different....) and obviously it needs wiring in.

Aside from that, it's looking fairly straightforward(ish)!

Cheers, Martin

I think the M119 is quite a lot wider at the heads (a bloke did an M119 into an SEC, and it only just fitted in that...), although there is another person on this board planning to put an M119 into his 190e, so it may be possible, but with a lot more work.

As for a manual box, I don't know of any that bolt right up, they'll all need an adapter plate or custom bellhousing making up. I'm sticking with the Auto, on account of Merc manual boxes being awful! I'd adapt something from a BMW or maybe a Toyota Supra if I were going to do it...

Cheers, Martin

bwhahaha.....you just made my morning!!! I think I may go ahead and order the engine today :D

I'm the one who is planning to put a m119 in a w201....

As for the gearbox: i want a manual one, definately. And while I am in the process of customizing a gearbox to the m119, I might as well go for a 6 speed.

Here in Europe, the easiest way to go was a BMW 6 speed box.
After a little research, i discovered that the Getrag box from a 3.2 m3 is basicly the same as the one of the latest Supra (fast and the furious type, hate that film), Nissan Skyline (at the rear different because of the 4wd) and one type of Maserati.
This 6 speed box is also used in E34 BMW 540i , some 740i's, some 840Ci's, and in the E39 M5.
Maybe also in the e46 m3, dont know that for sure.

Spoke to a guy who has a 550 bhp Supra (at a dyno run meeting), and he sais that this type of gearbox is very good.

So, over a period of time i bought 2 M3 3.2 boxes, both with a small defect (jumping out of 3rd, and noisy putting it into 3rd)

Last week, i began finfing out how to put this box on the m119.
I saw that the bellhouse was to small for the starter wheel of the m119. WAY to small....
Off course i need to make my own flywheel.
The only way to get this trans to a m119 is to use a 1,5 inch thick adapter plate, and fabricate a very awkward flywheel (very 'deep')
I already had a aluminium plate of 3/4 inch (20mm), to make a adapter plate.

After this, I went looking for the same type of getrag box, but with a different bellhousing. The one which is used in BMW v8 (540i, 740i, 840Ci, M5 e39).

A few days later I had 2 boxes lying in the shed: one defective from a e39 M5 (car burnt totally) and one good one from probably a 540i.
Opened the m5 box few days ago: only suitable for parts, because some sprockets were very rusted, because water came in the box.
For sure, the bellhouse and rest of the casing is usable (I can also put axles ant the rest of the m3 box in probably)

These boxes have a bellhousing which comes close to the bolt patern of the M119.

At the moment i have 2 things on my mind:
-which flywheel to use/fabricate/adapt
-use a adapter plate, or weld up aluminium at the right places, and drill new holes.

I plan on using a e39 m5 clutch, because they are pretty cheap, 260 euro from Sachs, will fit the shaft of the gearbox, and is capable of handling 400 bhp (m5 has that amount of power). Maybe later on special friction material on the plate, because ive heard that m5 clutches easily can be burnt @ 400bhp (although a bit more power than a m119, not much more torque, and torque is what counts concerning clutches and 'boxes)

Why not use a m5 flywheel? Because probably that is a 2-mass flywheel, and i am not into that ****. Dont want comfort, i want performance.

I plan on keeping the original starter, and the big starter sprocket and plate on the crankshaft. ON the plate, the custom flywheel, using longer bolts than original.

forget to mention:

The v8 boxes have a bell house that is definately big enough. Even slightly bigger than is needed .

i prob would
 

trry to find a benz flywheel to use, but i wouldnt be surprised if a bmw fw was very similar.

i think i have read that some of the m5 fws have two disc clutches which give a lot more holding power and dont break your leg in stiffness.

tom w

so did the M5 trans actually fit inside of the existing w201 trans tunnel, or did you have to bang it out some to make it fit?

Also, did you just re-position the brake servo? What was involved in that?

Thanks for the awesome information

wow, hold on flynavy!
I havent fitted the 'box, nor the engine in the w201 engine bay.
First i want to bolt the box to the engine, and then try and put the whole package in.

As for the trans tunnel: dont know, but I have an angle grinder, a welding machine, and lots of steel plate:D

Everything fits, if you customize it;)

@Tom W:

I cannnot think of any Merc flywheel to use (which V8 had a manual 'box? Read somewhere a rumour that here in europe there are 420 w126 with manuals, but i cant find them...even not in germany).

Even if i had one: I would need to fabricate a BMW clutch to it, because of the Getrag box.

Right now im leaning towards a custom flywheel of aluminium, with a steel plate bolted to it for the clutch plate friction material.

check the link below, for what i mean.


http://koopjes.marktplaats.nl/auto_diversen/onderdelen_bmw/22016579.html?return=eJxNycsJgDAMANBdOkCrF5F0moCRlv5CEgsi7u7Vd30IKzwZlqiw7eBOnEOykcZkxhDCJCmDqfuGUow roqnvNVxKgkfLPbT7X5zYxfcDK2MfsQ%3D%3D&df=1

i saw an old 450sl the other day with a stick somewhere, so the fw do exist. i wouldnt be surprised if a 280 sl fw would bolt up.

and the clutches for bmw and mb are probably the same pretty much. both will be sachs right?

another possible donor might be the porsche 928 which came with a stick. the tranny though was in back. and the clutch might be a really oddball small diameter thing.

tom w

yeah, I did a little research and talked to a couple people experienced with this swap and it sounds like the manual trans from an r107 560SL would be a good candidate....this would be from a euro (or grey market around here) car. The guy I talked to who has done 2 of these swaps said that all they needed to do was bang out the trans tunnel by ~ 3/4" along a 6" section. Can anyone see any problems with this option? I assume that since the transmission is not electronically controlled, that I shouldn't have any problems integrating it w/ the w126 m117 electronic system. If this works, it sounds like the missing piece of this swap that I've been looking for

Mm, I really cannot find any 80's Mercedes V8 with a manual here, and definately never heard of a 560 sl with manual.
Link maybe, to convince me?

And that still would be only 5 gears.
And a r107 450 I think has a different V8 than the m119.