PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum - Turbo Technics E320 parts list, installation, reviews

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Brabus 3.6-24 (Post 1568448)

I have one question regarding hte emision controle that you have to check up yearly.

What will the goverment say when you sudently turbocharge your car with higher polution and increase in use of gasoline.

Should you then pay an ekstra tax when the car must go for the bi-annual checkup or what are the rules where you all live?

Where i live, you can´t just turbo charge your car without paying an ekstra tax as would be the same as an identity change of the car to the model you changed it to?

And what about the insurance? they will go nuts here if i tell them i turbo charged my car.
Thats just a common thing here if you tuning your car then no one will insure the car, on less you pay an ekstra 2000$ a year.

What are your all doing in here about thouse isues and is it an isue for you where you live?

The "low value' kits that you have little respect for present zero problems with emission testing.

Why???
BECAUSE THEY USE A PIGGYBACK CONTROLLER !!! :eek:

By leaving the stock engine/fuel management intact along with the O2 sensor, and using a supplemental control in conjunction with twin high flow catalytic converters appropriate emission levels are maintained. :pleased:

Turbo or supercharging doesn't create a "polluter" if the system is well engineered.
With the proper AFR's you actually have better combustion.

As far as insurance, I pay about USD $450.00 per annum with a true $25K replacement cost with a collector car carrier.
This is the lowest horsepower vehicle that I own !

If you do it in the "low value kit" method then no heads are turned as it looks like a factory install, right down to a nameplate with a serial number :D

Show up with a ricer look can of worms tubing with bad welds and a huge single exhaust with no O2 sensor bung and you pay the "ricer" premium.

"Grown ups" tend to have high performance vehicles and are rarely noticed !!! :)

emission testing

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBYCC (Post 1568550)

The "low value' kits that you have little respect for present zero problems with emission testing.

Please stop the sand trowing i thought we where past that now!
i never called it a low value kit, i already said after a closer look i could se it was a god kit for the money. and i also said i have respeckt for this TT kit.
So lets stick to some of the questions and stop the comments about who said what and why!

Im askin because here where i live you have to have a proff of the kit as well as an TÜV test to certify the conversion made to the car is suitable and the car is stil in the same level of polution CO2 and others.

Why???
BECAUSE THEY USE A PIGGYBACK CONTROLLER !!! :eek:

Yes i think we just had the coverment here claime that all "box" tuning wich is very populare with a lot of the diesels now a days is claimed to be a step down in trying to get cars pulute less.
Because they say you might pulute less if drivin normal, but most people are not installing thouse Box" tuning or chip tuning if you will to just drive normal, and when the ekstra power is used it will make more pulution.
So thats there reson to ban the chip tuning and you can not registre your car or go trough the Bi annual checkup with this, without getting a fine and confiscating the chip(box) welcome to my country :mad:
But ofcause you could just pull it out when going to the checkup, but the police might check you if pulled over some day.

By leaving the stock engine/fuel management intact along with the O2 sensor, and using a supplemental control in conjunction with twin high flow catalytic converters appropriate emission levels are maintained. :pleased:

Are your sure that also count if you hit the gas and not drive normal, because i think they have a test where they riase the rpm to a higher level around 2-3000 i dont know but i know they test it here because of this new rule with the box tuning.

Turbo or supercharging doesn't create a "polluter" if the system is well engineered.
With the proper AFR's you actually have better combustion.

i guess your right but is that not only hold to the Power/polution or is it also the same if you campare it to rpms/pulution? i think they messure both here, but not sure.

As far as insurance, I pay about USD $450.00 per annum with a true $25K replacement cost with a collector car carrier.
This is the lowest horsepower vehicle that I own !

I pay 1000$ a year for my car with a true of 800$ i think (is a true the price you must pay if you are the the one responisble for the acident? thats what i must pay 800$ if thats the case)

If you do it in the "low value kit" method then no heads are turned as it looks like a factory install, right down to a nameplate with a serial number :D
Thats the way i like it ( a true sleeper ) :D even though people are turning the heads for looking at my wheels :o thats ok i think, it should be a joy to feel that you own something people enve. (not only young honda owners give me the look, even elder men in there big Audies are stareing down the whells :o

Show up with a ricer look can of worms tubing with bad welds and a huge single exhaust with no O2 sensor bung and you pay the "ricer" premium.

yes and i still get why young people think a huge surfboard mounted at the bag, like an Mitzu Evo is so cool on there pimp out honda civic :confused:
and in the back a big noicy exhaust that is shouting out laud even in idle rpms.
That tells me that its more the atention they are lokking fore rather than repekt of the ride they drive in.

"Grown ups" tend to have high performance vehicles and are rarely noticed !!! :)

yes there fore i have never owned a honda, or a mitzu evo or other cars with the i have huge power and look at me attention figues.

But are there no restrictions in the UK or AU for canversion to a turbo car that you have to show or registre anything at all?

If i realy could go for this TT kit(i got the 3.6L witch i could understand isn´t suitable for the kit?) my bigest problem would be the law and restriction about converting my car to a turbo.
I would need papers and messurements from a independant test facility that can show proff of the kit is not raising the cars polution at any rpms or power level together with a TÜV acceptens that have test results of the kit is fittet for the car and that the brakes can hold to the ekstra HP.

It´s realy a strickt law we got here about doing enything to our cars without have to proff this and that.
So i was just wondering what the rules are in your countries?
And if such papers are along with the TT kit? that would be great and a big time saver.

In Australia it is impossible to register heavily modified vehicles without a certificate from an approved engineer which states that the modifications comply with all design and safety regulations. However, vehicles only need to be inspected by the government when they are being registered (or when the police force you to have another inspection because they pulled you over and believed that your car is not roadworthy). There are no periodic re-inspections here. When your register or change ownership of a car you need to obtain a roadworthy certificate (RWC) from an approved mechanic but the inspection is less stringent than for an engineer's certificate.
Given this, people here will either get a RWC and engineer's certificate prior to registration or register the car in an unmodified state and then modify it.
I'm doing the latter although I shouldn't have much trouble obtaining an engineer's certificate if needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brabus 3.6-24 (Post 1568701)

I would need papers and messurements from a independant test facility that can show proff of the kit is not raising the cars polution at any rpms or power level together with a TÜV acceptens that have test results of the kit is fittet for the car and that the brakes can hold to the ekstra HP.
And if such papers are along with the TT kit? that would be great and a big time saver.

First never lose sight that the stock engine/fuel management controls are still in place along with the O2 sensor and function as normal.
The O2 sensor always attempts to maintain stoichmetric. (Lambda / 14.7:1)

The piggyback controller enriches the mixture to .85 Lambda / 12.5:1 under boost.
To you it may appear that the engine then runs rich and produces more emissions, but it doesn't as the boost requires the rich mixture to prevent detonation.
The TurboTechnics Service Instructions indicates the CO setting at 1.3%-1.7% CO.
If set up properly the system is as efficient as a factory installed twin turbo such as on the current BMW 335I.

You must understand that the TurboTechnic and Mosselman kits were designed for power with low boost, durability and the ability to pass emission tests.
If you look at the exhaust tubing that your "expert" offers, it's obvious that he has not taken into consideration volumetric efficiency and the minimization of exhaust pulse interference between overlapping cylinders.
A design like his with a stand alone engine management, no O2 feedback and without catalyst would not likely pass an emissions test.

Keep in mind that the TurboTechnic kits were commisioned for and installed by an authorized Merc dealer in the UK.
Doubtful they would risk an install if it caused problems with the emissions.

Consider some engineering advantages of the TurboTechnics kit.
Your "expert uses one very large turbo that is fed from all six cylinders.
A great deal of inertia to overcome, so inherent lag.
Along with the lag is low efficiency which correlates to excess emissions.

The TurboTechnics uses two turbos.
The front turbo is spun by cylinders 1,2,3, the rear by 4.5.6.
In essence two 3 cylinder engines working in tandem and becoming one at high RPMs
The firing order of the M103 is 1-6-3-4-2-5 so you can see how the exhaust pulses are divided by the manifolds so the scavenging is excellent.
Again volumetric efficiency and ability to not pollute.
The exhaust consists of one 2" pipe from each turbo manifold to the silencers which are 2 x 2" in and out.
I run individual 2" high flow spun metal cats instead of one ceramic unit.
Emissions as low as stock engine without turbos !

Ok.

That sound fair.
Here we have the 2 yearly checkup by an engineer company of the coverment checking everything of the car.
So for me it could have the menning that i had to take of the kit every time i had to go for the checkup.
But if you must get the test certificate your self i think its getting expensive as a test facility like the TÜV in German will need to make some papers or certificate of this kit in order for me to keep it on while the 2 yera checkup is done.

And yes im aware of the Sweedish stuff are a completly other specs because they are going for only to make som HP not the durability or emmisions rules.
They also have a completly free law there about cars.
They can if they would built a mini cooper with 2 V8s in it and then turbo charge the thing and still get it streeet leagal.
I think im movin to sweden like 50% of the car enthusiatic peolpe are here.
We also have to pay 280% tax for the new car we get here.
If the car cost 20.000£ new then the goverment will have another 60.000£ in tax.
So here we mostley have to by old cars as they are much cheper.

Well have enybody got a dyno here with there stock M104 3.0 ? or 3.2 ?
Are the 220 Hp whell HP or flywhell HP ?

Does anyone have pictures (or a link to pictures) of the TT kit fitted to an M104 engine? The instructions aren't up to much and some photos of M104 installation would be very useful for fitting the kit.

Today I finished dismantling the engine. I'm going to see if the pistons can be machined to lower the compression a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by e320_Coupe (Post 1569321)

These are the only pix I had...scanned and cropped from some old UK car mags.
They should at least give you a bit of an idea ! ;)

http://www.dropshots.com/photos/1709...721/144900.jpg

http://www.dropshots.com/photos/1709...721/145041.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brabus 3.6-24 (Post 1569274)

Well have enybody got a dyno here with there stock M104 3.0 ? or 3.2 ?
Are the 220 Hp whell HP or flywhell HP ?

A stock M104 will have about a 30% drive train loss from the published flywheel numbers. ( 220HP published less 30% =154 +/-dyno )

The dyno is just a number that is useful in establishing a baseline and then comparing the results of the performance modifications.

My M103 increased power by 50% from baseline to turbo install.
So subtract 30% from your published figures, then multiply by 50% and that should approximate RWHP.
Add back the 30% and you'll approximate the turbo flywheel numbers.

My M103 first 1/4 mile trap speed was 96.70 MPH and it should with cooler weather pick up a few more MPH.

If I use a mathmetical calculation based on 3700LBS/1682KG GVW it would give me 261.12HP. The vehicle produced 195HP on a load dyno which is about 18% lower then an inertia dyno.
195 x 1.18 = 230HP, add back the 30% drive train loss which = 299HP.
The same mathemetical calculation would indicate 313HP.

The dyno pull indicated 195.6HP @ 5500RPM and 220.4 LBFT T @ 4250RPM.
Using a math calc HP=T x RPM / 5252 ( 220.4 x 5500 / 5252 ) you get 230.8RWP x 1.3 = 300HP.
Convert to inertia dyno and you have 300 x 1.18=354HP and 220.4 x 1.3 x 1.18 =338LBFT T.

Conclude many numbers, many calculations, that really mean nothing as the only numbers that have meaning are the performance numbers measured on a track.

The M103 Twin Turbo will probably be a bit quicker then the M104 on the low end due to it's torque curve.
The M104 will have a top end advantage, but not substantial, as it has better breathing with the valve design. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by e320_Coupe (Post 1569321)

The G.F.P published this picture earlier in this thread. Helped me A LOT.
Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahnstormer (Post 1480887)

I've also been told that using a thicker head gasket wouldn't compromise strength. There were a few markets around the world where Mercedes would supply cars with a thicker gasket in order to lower compression for fuel grades available in that region - I believe the Middle East & Australia (Ortolan?) were included.

This looks like a promising angle. Can anyone find out part numbers of different thickness gaskets?

Quote:

Originally Posted by e320_Coupe (Post 1573096)

This looks like a promising angle. Can anyone find out part numbers of different thickness gaskets?

I wouldn't worry about lowering the compression providing you use a piggy back injector controller like the Split Second or ERL Aquamist that can be set through out the boost RPM range at a 12.5:1/.85 lambda AFR.

I still believe TurboTechnics lowered the compression because they couldn't get the electronics correct.
Mosselman didn't require any compression mods but did supply an adjustable controller !!!

New to this forum, and so far like it very much. Lot's of technical people.

I have purchased M6 kit from TT and in the process of installing it myself. I am a little stuck on the breather system (2 hoses, MIO filter, one way valve, etc...). Can anyone please help me understand how to connect all that? Picture would be super helpfull.

I noticed that some people here are skipping cats. I live in California and they are pretty strict here. So my question is, Will the car pass the smog check with the TT kit, no EGR, and high performance magnoflow cats?

Also I have a bit of a question regarding EGR that I have removed. Since the sensor was mounted to the exhaust manifold. I still have the EGR relay/switch that has 2 vacuum hoses fed to it. I beleive one went to the exhaust manifold sensor and the other toward the throttle body. Not sure if I should just yank it out completely and cap the vacuum hose from the throttle body? or keep the relay there connected to the car computer harness but cap the 2 vacuum connectors?

Here is the link to my project post (if anyone is interested).
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w124-e-ce-d-td-class/1310023-babushkas-w124-project.html

Thank you for this great thread and all the good info.

PS: Almost forgot. 1993 300CE Cabrio US M104

Two small problems.
1) The vertical pipe by the radiator fouls the aircon pipes on the M104 engined versions. See red arrow.
2) I want to clarify the airfilter position before I chop any bodywork.
From what I can tell, cuts need to be made on the blue lines and the red bit bent up flat (or cut off completely).
Can anyone who has an M104 TT help?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBYCC (Post 1573861)

Agreed - thanks for finding the split second solution, lowering the compression was not a route I wanted to take...

Like Babushka, I truly appreciate the technical information that has been provided throughout this thread (Brabus 3.6 BS aside). My 104 conversion will take place this winter & I feel bad that I'll be benefiting from the hard work, trial and error that others currently fitting their kits are going thru now.

When I was originally speaking to John Pearson prior to purchasing the kit - he mentioned that their Service Manager has been there for years & was one of the guys involved in converting cars when new - maybe we could tap him for some info on the A/C line & air filter issues??