M120 into 560SL (With Pictures!) - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Roncallo · #1 12-29-2007, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stummala

well...i finally browsed onto this thread for the first time (and visited the site for the first time in 6 months!)..

Anyhow, here's some pointers with your ME-controlled M120 with 5-speed 722.6 transmission integration:

1. No, you cannot use the existing wheel speed sensors in your car (the front ABS ones), the ESP system uses different pulses at different rates and frequency. The ESP will be in limp mode, you'll have no throttle.

2. No, you cannot just install rear wheel speed sensors and expect the ESP system to work without all the yaw sensors, steering angle sensor (which goes in the steering column and integrates with a second generation airbag clock springs), the ESP electrohydraulic pump must be used and you need to use a master cylinder/brake booster assembly from an ESP car because it has a pressure release switch that is monitored by the ESP brain. If any of these items are not working, ESP is off, trans doesn't shift, car is in limp mode.

3. Yes, you MUST have STAR Diagnosis with DAS to go into the Development mode and version code the ME to delete features that it may no longer have (various additional sensors, etc.) otherwise count on permanent check engine lamps and possible limp mode condition. The development mode is only on Engineering versions of the DAS. We have one if you need any screen references, I can attempt to find them.

4. Yes, you must use the EIS system with ignition key otherwise, the ME will not receive a start authorization signal and will not fire the engine. It won't even crank.

5. In addition, the rear differential ratio MUST match the one from the donor vehicle or the transmission control unit will detect a mismatch ratio error and shut down the transmission completely and place the engine into limp mode.

There are several other items but these initial ones came to mind within seconds. I would probably forgoe the ESP system, simulate/generate wheel speeds, and go with an aftermarket system to manage the electronics (aka Steve Lemberg).

Satish

Thanks Satish

You just confirmed my worst fears. Actually ESP would be a nice thing to have and I do have all the sensors pump, brake cylinders and booster yaw sensors, steering angle sensors etc. My only problem is I would like to do this after the fact. But it seams the only way to do this is to go all or nothing. Complete MB ECU, Trans Control and ESP system. And if it doesn't work I would at least need the MB Star diagnostic system to do any trouble shooting. ESP would be a very cool feature to have. I believe Motec may have solutions for after market ESP however there stuff is way over my budget.

Plan right now is to just get it running any way possible and even that looks daunting. I will give it a shot with the MB ECU's and Trans controller and as you say fabricated signals or re-adapted wheel speed sensors. If that doesn't work I will go right to a Megasquirt unit. That still will leave me with the transmission to deal with. The new GPIO board from Megasquirt may take care of that if I can figure out the signals or the quick fall back may be the older 4 speed non electronic transmission.

Thanks for the replay
John Roncallo

iwrock · #2 12-29-2007, 07:43 PM

Dang, the legendary Satish.... Hows that M120 W126 treating you?

John, you wanna make a trip out to the west coast so I can check out that beast of a 107?

stummala · #3 12-29-2007, 07:53 PM

If the ME controller doesn't get a signal from the Transmission control unit, the car will most likely go into limp mode. Therefore, using the older 722.3 4-speed transmission with the newer ME engine management unit may not work correctly.

Satish

....and yes, the V12 SEC runs nice...here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SAn4S-lntM

Roncallo · #4 12-29-2007, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stummala

If the ME controller doesn't get a signal from the Transmission control unit, the car will most likely go into limp mode. Therefore, using the older 722.3 4-speed transmission with the newer ME engine management unit may not work correctly.

Satish

....and yes, the V12 SEC runs nice...here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SAn4S-lntM

Yes thats what I figured the 4sp is a solution to go with the non MB ECU. What I'm most concerned about is getting the MB controller with trans controller to work without all of the other modules, ESP, BAS, ADS etc.

Maybe I will luck out and the 107 wheel speed sensors frequency difference might work with my 107 gear set to fool the transmission. The ratios are fairly close I belive It's 2.47:1 for the 107 and 2.65:1 for the 129. I also have the 129 rear but I did want to save that for later as well.

I've seen the your tube many time. I look for it every time I need a boost of motivation.

John Roncallo

Roncallo · #5 12-29-2007, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iwrock

Dang, the legendary Satish.... Hows that M120 W126 treating you?

John, you wanna make a trip out to the west coast so I can check out that beast of a 107?

I am planning a West Coast trip If I get it running buy the summer. Right now I'm trying to order the radiator but I think the guy is on Vacation. After radiator I need to finish exhaust then I can settle down to electronics. Plan is ship car to west coast meet wife and drive Pacific Coast Highway. Loose wife and start the long drive home. Stop at Bonneville to see what it can do, drive home to CT.

Does your dad still have the Ferrari.
John Roncallo

Roncallo · #6 12-30-2007, 01:55 AM

I guess it seams like I've been sitting on my butt posting BS on these news groups. Well that is only half true. I have actually been completing the design of the radiator and the instructions for the radiator guy to put it together. And building a shipping container that can be used by the radiator builder to sets the lower and side mounts in place. And since I decided to go with a brass radiator I had to remake the side mounts out of brass because you cant weld aluminum to brass.

So here are some pictures. Including the new side mounts, radiator shipping case and a model of the radiator left tank showing a unique upper hose inlet design that I have asked the radiator shop to fabricate. This tank design will allow me to use the SL600 upper radiator hose with no modifications.

The idea of the case is so the radiator builder can setup the location of the side mounts and lower mounts. The radiator will have a factory like fit using the same rubber pads that clip onto the plastic MB radiator.

I have also pulled the chassis main wiring harness from the SL600 and I have started to remove unnecessary wires. Man this wire harness is heavy. Technically at work I would have to have two people lift it because it weighs over 30 lb.

t walgamuth · #7 12-30-2007, 07:11 AM

That detail of the main rad hose bung looks good. I was going to comment that the one in the first drawing looked like it might not flow enough, but the little isometric shows a setup that should flow fine. The inset design is inherently weaker than a conventional setup though and will, IMHO, require heavier guage metal than normal or at least some reinforcing in that area to stand up to the stresses of use.

Great progress, John!

I enjoyed your explanation of the financing of the project and particularly the selling off of extra parts to finance it. You are obviously getting a trememdous amount of work done without spending the mountains of cash that would be required to do this any other way!

Tom W

Roncallo · #8 12-30-2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

That detail of the main rad hose bung looks good. I was going to comment that the one in the first drawing looked like it might not flow enough, but the little isometric shows a setup that should flow fine. The inset design is inherently weaker than a conventional setup though and will, IMHO, require heavier guage metal than normal or at least some reinforcing in that area to stand up to the stresses of use.

Great progress, John!

I enjoyed your explanation of the financing of the project and particularly the selling off of extra parts to finance it. You are obviously getting a trememdous amount of work done without spending the mountains of cash that would be required to do this any other way!

Tom W

Actually thats an older picture the latest detail is enclosed. I am taking a chance with stress in this area but I don't consider it to be a problem area or a non repairable area. Using this method gives me the ability use a standard off the shelf MB SL600 hose, which gives me all the hose flex freedom of the original design.

Yes buying the car is what made this job a no brainer over a Chevy engine setup. Plus I believe this car will be worth alot more than a Chevy powered one. Although using am MB engine kind of makes me stay more MB oriented and use as much MB parts as possible. This does drive the cost up. Like making it work with an MB upper radiator hose. And of coarse I have to use MB hose clamps. Those air filter may have to go if I can find and MB replacement, although they do look cool. If I could get away with an MB radiator I would have used one.

Buying the wrecked SL600 was actually such a good idea that it would still be worth while buying the whole car even if it ended up having a cracked block. When doing this the engine itself becomes the least of your concern. Don't forget in my position, I'm not a MB technichian in 20 years. The only MB I have to even look at to take a measurement etc are the two 560SL's I own and the wrecked SL600. I tried getting information on these boards about weather or not the engine would fit or not but you never know who your talking to and what they really know and in the end unless someone has done this before your not going to get a good answer without being there. So for me it was buy the SL600 and take measurements myself. I purchased the SL600 without knowing that the engine would:

A: Fit
B: Start
C: Did not have a cracked block etc.

It was an insurance wreck from CA. But I was well aware that I could sell all the parts for what the car cost especially if the engine was good. With the engine in hand and a few quick measurements on both the engine and my black 560SL, I realized that this was indeed a go.

John Roncallo

stummala · #9 12-30-2007, 12:01 PM

Unless the rear end ratio is exact, it will NOT work. Close enough doesn't cut it with ME/TCU electronics. The ratio has to be what it is programmed for. The R107 wheel speed sensors will NOT work. They are the same as the W126 sensors that I've had to deal with during my conversion. I would contemplate bypassing ESP electronics with simulators, etc. and version coding the TCU for a 2.47 rear end perhaps.

Satish

Hatterasguy · #10 12-29-2007, 11:54 PM

It seems to me that you would be better off going with the older 722.3 and all aftermarket controls on the engine.

These new cars are complicated! Whats amazing is that this is an old design! A new SL600 must be like a space ship!