116 to 126 Differential swap (with pics) - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Johnhef · #16 01-13-2009, 06:58 PM

hmm, thats good to know, a trans swap may be down the line, but for now Im set.

No new 0-60 time yet, I have the vids, but theyre too dark to see unless someone knows how to lighten them. I forget where 60mph is in relation to my speedo now so I'll have to write it down next time I'm out.

Old time was 8.0seconds for 0-60. Factory time for a Euro 500 with 2.24 is 8.1s for 0-100kmh (~62mph)

DeliveryValve · #17 01-13-2009, 11:53 PM

Hey John,

I am envious that you picked up that ultra rare 3.07 LSD. I considered picking it up myself. But you are using it for a much better purpose then I would of ever use of it.

BTW - I thought the term "Taller gear" refers to going to a ratio with a lower number. You in fact went to a "shorter gear". But physically, it looks like the 3.07 has a 210 mm ring gear, where else it looks like your old 2.24 has a 185 mm ring gear. What are you going to do with the old diff? I might be interested in the carrier if indeed it is a 185.

Johnhef · #18 01-15-2009, 11:29 PM

It probably does refer to that. I must have been asleep that day when they explained that and I used it as I thought it meant.

Not sure what do do with the old one. It needs the clutches replaced if the LSD is ever to be functional again.

Johnhef · #19 01-18-2009, 08:01 PM

ok new video in the daylight with the 3.07, enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yjuxX9AYfw

gsxr · #20 01-18-2009, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnhef

ok new video in the daylight with the 3.07, enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yjuxX9AYfw

John, is your speedo accurate? That's darn quick! Very nice. I assume you just bolted in the 3.07 LSD as-is, with the old clutches, right? You may find it will need the clutch pack replaced. Also, I used the OE dealer fluid for normal LSD, not the newfangled SLR stuff. It's 85W-90, click here for a photo of the bottle, part number, etc. Just went up in price again, now over $30/bottle MSRP, sheesh. Your 85W-140 juice is a mere $15/bottle MSRP. Hmmm.

On a related note, click here for a video of my car going from 0-130 (20MB download).

gsxr · #21 01-18-2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeliveryValve

I am envious that you picked up that ultra rare 3.07 LSD. I considered picking it up myself. But you are using it for a much better purpose then I would of ever use of it.

BTW - I thought the term "Taller gear" refers to going to a ratio with a lower number. You in fact went to a "shorter gear". But physically, it looks like the 3.07 has a 210 mm ring gear, where else it looks like your old 2.24 has a 185 mm ring gear. What are you going to do with the old diff? I might be interested in the carrier if indeed it is a 185.

DV, if you just want a 3.07 LSD for your 1983 300D with 185mm gears, that's simple. Get a 190E-16 rear end, and swap the LSD carrier into your 123 housing. Replace the clutches while it's apart, though.

Even if John's old 2.24 LSD diff was a 185mm (which I don't think it is), it would be useless, unless you wanted to try and fit the 2.24 setup into your car. You can't use a 2.24 carrier with 3.07 gears. Each carrier only works with certain gear sets. For example, the 190E-16 fits 3.07 and 3.27 185mm gears in the 1982-1995 range (approximately). But it won't work with 2.87, or 3.69, etc... those require different carriers.

Some photos of my LSD build (in a W124) are below, note the condition of the old & new clutches.

Roncallo · #22 01-18-2009, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

Some photos of my LSD build (in a W124) are below, note the condition of the old & new clutches.

Nice pixs. 1.80mm vs 1.75mm thats only a difference of about 0.002". Is that enough to be considered worn.

I have been considering doing a re clutch pack job on my stock 560SL. Last time I priced it was $400.00 in parts. I was assuming frictions steels and one size of each selectable. Are the steels generally reusable. Can the selectable friction size be identified by a marking of any kind so that I could order the sizes near what was originally installed. Any special tools needed to get this apart.

Johnhef · #23 01-19-2009, 07:21 AM

No, not accurate currently, it was about 100mph when the video stops. Our parts guys know nothing about older cars so I hopped the counter and started reading bottles till I found one approved for LSD. It was about $10 a bottle for me.

tonkovich · #24 01-19-2009, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnhef

ok new video in the daylight with the 3.07, enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yjuxX9AYfw

excuse my ignorance, but what is that sound when you go into redline? (aka death zone?)

gsxr · #25 01-19-2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roncallo

Nice pixs. 1.80mm vs 1.75mm thats only a difference of about 0.002". Is that enough to be considered worn.

You'd be surprised. The tolerances are stupidly tight. Selecting the proper single-sided disc was a huge pain. 0.05mm too thick, you can't get the diff re-assembled (too tight). 0.05mm too thin, it's too loose. For some reason, the four double-sided discs don't wear as much as the one single-sided disc - not sure why. I've only done this twice (currently working on the second one) and I've found about the same thing in both. The second was high miles (250k?), once again the double-sided discs were only worn down to approx 1.75 (-0.05), but this time the single-sided were down 0.10-0.15 (first LSD that I built was only about -0.05). Remember that all those tolerances stack up, the total ends up being 0.25-0.40mm wear each side, or 0.50-0.80 total for both sides, which is significant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roncallo

I have been considering doing a re clutch pack job on my stock 560SL. Last time I priced it was $400.00 in parts. I was assuming frictions steels and one size of each selectable. Are the steels generally reusable.

MBNA prices increased substantially on Jan-1. Right now, the clutch parts add up to about $375 list price, plus another $100 in seals, O-rings, and fluid to R&R the carrier. Knock off about 20% when buying from a wholesale dealer like Caliber, Parts.com, MB F/L, etc. So yeah, $400 is about right. The steels are very likely reusable, there was no visible (or measureable, IIRC) wear on those. That wil save you another $34 list (they are $3.40 each, 10 needed). I'm also assuming you will re-use the ring gear bolts (those are $8.50 list each, x10 !!!) and re-use the main bearings ($97 list each).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roncallo

Can the selectable friction size be identified by a marking of any kind so that I could order the sizes near what was originally installed.

Markings, no. You have to measure the old ones and guess. Luckily, on the 210mm diff, the single-sided disc doesn't wear all the way to the inner diameter. So on mine, there was just enough left to measure what I believe was the original thickness (which is how I determined it was approx 0.10-0.15 worn). On the 185mm diff, there was no ridge left to measure. If in doubt, order the next thickest size, you can adjust it by machining down the back side until it's the proper thickness - usually you just need to trim down a few hundredths until it's thin enough to allow re-assembly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roncallo

Any special tools needed to get this apart.

For the 210mm diff... this tool makes your life a lot easier. You could fabricate one if you don't want to shell out $100 for it, but to me it was worth the cost. It allows proper clamping in a vise, which is absolutely required. You MUST either buy or fabricate this tool. This little gem is also handy, and fairly cheap. Use spare axle flanges instead of the mandrels specified in the FSM. You wil need to fabricate something that allows you to connect a socket+wrench to the axle flange, to rotate the gears for assembly, and testing the Nm friction torque. The factory mandrels for this purpose are outrageously expensive (over $500!) so I fabricated something that works just as well - click here, here, and here to see photos.

For the 185mm diff, you also need very large snap-ring pliers, but those aren't required for the 210mm. I'm assuming you are just doing a clutch refresh, btw. If you touch the pinion nut at all, another special tool is required ($250+). I bought the MB-spec rear cover sealant too... click here for a photo & part number.

marlinspike · #26 01-19-2009, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnhef

No, not accurate currently, it was about 100mph when the video stops.

You sure about that? According to the tach it looks more like ~94mph.

marlinspike · #27 01-19-2009, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

DV, if you just want a 3.07 LSD for your 1983 300D with 185mm gears, that's simple. Get a 190E-16 rear end....

I hope John won't mind the thread drift, but since you're a man who seems to know his rear ends, do you know what it would take to swap the 2.88 w/ABS diff from a 1985 W126 diesel in place of the 2.47 w/ABS diff on a 1985 380SE?

Dee8go · #28 01-19-2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnhef

ok new video in the daylight with the 3.07, enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yjuxX9AYfw

I love the sound of that, John. Very inspirational!

Roncallo · #29 01-19-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

You'd be surprised. The tolerances are stupidly tight. Selecting the proper single-sided disc was a huge pain. 0.05mm too thick, you can't get the diff re-assembled (too tight). 0.05mm too thin, it's too loose. For some reason, the four double-sided discs don't wear as much as the one single-sided disc - not sure why. I've only done this twice (currently working on the second one) and I've found about the same thing in both. The second was high miles (250k?), once again the double-sided discs were only worn down to approx 1.75 (-0.05), but this time the single-sided were down 0.10-0.15 (first LSD that I built was only about -0.05). Remember that all those tolerances stack up, the total ends up being 0.25-0.40mm wear each side, or 0.50-0.80 total for both sides, which is significant.

MBNA prices increased substantially on Jan-1. Right now, the clutch parts add up to about $375 list price, plus another $100 in seals, O-rings, and fluid to R&R the carrier. Knock off about 20% when buying from a wholesale dealer like Caliber, Parts.com, MB F/L, etc. So yeah, $400 is about right. The steels are very likely reusable, there was no visible (or measureable, IIRC) wear on those. That wil save you another $34 list (they are $3.40 each, 10 needed). I'm also assuming you will re-use the ring gear bolts (those are $8.50 list each, x10 !!!) and re-use the main bearings ($97 list each).

Markings, no. You have to measure the old ones and guess. Luckily, on the 210mm diff, the single-sided disc doesn't wear all the way to the inner diameter. So on mine, there was just enough left to measure what I believe was the original thickness (which is how I determined it was approx 0.10-0.15 worn). On the 185mm diff, there was no ridge left to measure. If in doubt, order the next thickest size, you can adjust it by machining down the back side until it's the proper thickness - usually you just need to trim down a few hundredths until it's thin enough to allow re-assembly.

For the 210mm diff... this tool makes your life a lot easier. You could fabricate one if you don't want to shell out $100 for it, but to me it was worth the cost. It allows proper clamping in a vise, which is absolutely required. You MUST either buy or fabricate this tool. This little gem is also handy, and fairly cheap. Use spare axle flanges instead of the mandrels specified in the FSM. You wil need to fabricate something that allows you to connect a socket+wrench to the axle flange, to rotate the gears for assembly, and testing the Nm friction torque. The factory mandrels for this purpose are outrageously expensive (over $500!) so I fabricated something that works just as well - click here, here, and here to see photos.

For the 185mm diff, you also need very large snap-ring pliers, but those aren't required for the 210mm. I'm assuming you are just doing a clutch refresh, btw. If you touch the pinion nut at all, another special tool is required ($250+). I bought the MB-spec rear cover sealant too... click here for a photo & part number.

Thank You

That's actually the kind of info I've been looking for.

DeliveryValve · #30 01-19-2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

....You can't use a 2.24 carrier with 3.07 gears. Each carrier only works with certain gear sets. For example, the 190E-16 fits 3.07 and 3.27 185mm gears in the 1982-1995 range (approximately). But it won't work with 2.87, or 3.69, etc... those require different carriers....

That's good to know! Thanks Dave.