W124 300E M103 Turbo Project - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Chlippo · #16 08-31-2009, 06:38 PM

it is maxed at 0.5 bar, but i even wasnt able to get more than 0.3 bar at high revs. I removed the front headlight to get some fresh air and the boost was way better, it was around 0.55 bar at the low revs and 0.45 at the end of the 6000 rpm.
Today the problem was from the rubber part i use from the audi. It appears that it aint able to hold the boost, although it is made for a turbo audi, but apparently the fuel from the additional injectors aint helping the rubber...so we took it off and trying to do a custom metal part instead

Chlippo · #17 09-03-2009, 05:57 PM

everything is in its place now, except the alc kit. When testing the car we noticed that the engine have a big difficulty getting from 5500 rpm to the end. The car was tested at 0.5 bar on a slight hill...no knock, no heat.
Any idea where does this problem come from? Do i have to try it with more boost (like 0.6 bar?) Or the turbo isnt in a good shape? or maybe the custom exhaust manifold is that bad? timing chain? ? ?

Barbaborstje · #18 09-07-2009, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chlippo

latest update, the intercooler is in its place. The piping is pretty much done. Still the additional injectors and then the first run.
I will post a few pictures of the setup

How did you solve the problem with the bumperspace, have you got any pictures with bumper attached ?

Great project

Greetings from the Netherlands

Barbaborstje

Joreto · #19 09-07-2009, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chlippo

everything is in its place now, except the alc kit. When testing the car we noticed that the engine have a big difficulty getting from 5500 rpm to the end. The car was tested at 0.5 bar on a slight hill...no knock, no heat.
Any idea where does this problem come from? Do i have to try it with more boost (like 0.6 bar?) Or the turbo isnt in a good shape? or maybe the custom exhaust manifold is that bad? timing chain? ? ?

In my opinion it's the exhaust manifold or turbo as my car has no problem revving to the rev limiter and does it with no hesitation and very quickly (does 5000-6300 in a blink of an eye in the first 2-3 gears

). Don't know if the turbo your using has the flow capability to feed the engine, I had a similar problem back in the days when I put a T25 on the 2.5-16v. It would rev to 5000 - 5500 and then die off, the turbo was to small for the engine . What I would do however is start with the manifold, optimize it or make a new one with better design then if that doesn't solve the problem I'd go for a new turbocharger .

JayRash · #20 09-07-2009, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joreto

In my opinion it's the exhaust manifold or turbo as my car has no problem revving to the rev limiter and does it with no hesitation and very quickly (does 5000-6300 in a blink of an eye in the first 2-3 gears

). Don't know if the turbo your using has the flow capability to feed the engine, I had a similar problem back in the days when I put a T25 on the 2.5-16v. It would rev to 5000 - 5500 and then die off, the turbo was to small for the engine . What I would do however is start with the manifold, optimize it or make a new one with better design then if that doesn't solve the problem I'd go for a new turbocharger .

Problem is; boost is not tapering off, say we have max of 0.5 mid range, from 5k rpms up the lowest we have is 0.4+ Bar. so is that similar to what u had on the t25?

Chlippo · #21 09-07-2009, 05:08 PM

how about if the engine got a high compression...?
was testing the car today and the rpm stands still at around 5500-6000 rpm again. The boost was still at 0.45 bar and the car didnt rev fast at all.
The Afr's where correct...so basicly enough boost, enough air and enough fuel...so whats wrong.
Tomorrow i might try to change the exhaust pipe for a larger one...the one i actually have is around 57mm...and i just still have the last muffler.

Pagz · #22 09-07-2009, 05:45 PM

What is initial boost responce like?.
I tend to agree with Joreto,the manifold and turbine look far to restrictive for that RPM range,imo the compressor looks fairly large and upto the task though.
are you running the original mufflers?...if so the rear muffler is usually very restrictive and would add to the high rpm problems.

Cheers,
Paul

Joreto · #23 09-08-2009, 07:08 AM

Jay, the 16v with the t25 was exactly the same. I had boost pressure i.e. 0.5 bars but the car struggled to rev (turbo was way off it's efficiency range), but the t25 is a small turbo.

Chlippo, high compression is not your problem here, either the turbo is running out of breath or the exhaust header is too restrictive (may be a combination of both). Also 0.5 bar of boost doesn't mean enough air, whats important is the air flow (lb/min), different turbos flow different amount of air at a given boost level.

P.S. I'm running a t3/t4 turbo with the following spec :
Inlet____________________3"
Outlet___________________2"
Working Pressure__________5~30 PSI
Compressor_____________.50 A/R Compressor
Turbine_________________.63 A/R Turbine
Compressor Wheel Exducer:_3"
Inducer:________________2"
Turbine Wheel Exducer:____2.2"
Inducer:________________2.58"

It's rated for around 350WHP .

JayRash · #24 09-08-2009, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joreto

Jay, the 16v with the t25 was exactly the same. I had boost pressure i.e. 0.5 bars but the car struggled to rev (turbo was way off it's efficiency range), but the t25 is a small turbo.

Chlippo, high compression is not your problem here, either the turbo is running out of breath or the exhaust header is too restrictive (may be a combination of both). Also 0.5 bar of boost doesn't mean enough air, whats important is the air flow (lb/min), different turbos flow different amount of air at a given boost level.

Thanks man, finally we got so good insight going here

c280nz · #25 09-09-2009, 06:58 AM

what info do you know about your turbo? but at a basic look at size it should be good, but doesnt that say t04? arnt they evo turbos? i would look for exhaust system restrictions, i run a
63mm down pipe to a 3 inch exhaust with free flowing mufflers,
ditch the standard muffler, and if it is too noisy after that add some high flow mufflers/resonators to make it more quiet but still have good flow,
another place to look would be the turbo manifold, it may be to restrictive,
but in my oppinion id first look at the exhaust then the manifold

another question chlipo what size charge piping are you running (pipe to the intercooler then to intake plenum)
i would hope you are running 2 1/2 inch and i am hoping that the c230k intercooler isnt to restrictive

also can you describe to us how you have your piping to your internal wastegate hooked up?

sorry for all the questions but sometimes its the simple things that can trip us up, i know from experience

Chlippo · #26 09-09-2009, 06:13 PM

What i know about my turbo...Garrett Airesearch T04, it is not new but it still good.
Im running 57mm downpipe to a 2.3 inch exhaut with one free flow muffler and the original muffler at the end.
Charge piping are made of rubber (for the corners) as you can see at the pictures in the top of the thread...it is around 2.3 inch. Ill go for stainless pipes later on.
Is the Intercooler too restrictive...no idea but i dont think so.

Today i had the exhaust cut little after the downpipe so i can test the car again. The car is faster now and the acceleration is better...but it didnt rev more than 6100 rpm.

The other prob today was with the additional injectors. I use Peugeot Mi16 ones...and they couldnt handle the 5 bar presure of the fuel pump, so they started injecting fuel even with no electrical wire on them...which caused the car to die. The other result is that my intercooler was full of fuel that those injectors flowed.
I cleaned the mess, tried a bit better injectors and everything was fine again...
so what injectors will i have to use so they can support the pressure of the fuel pump without blowing...

Turbo E320 · #27 09-10-2009, 12:26 AM

First of all it seems you've positioned the injectors before the intercooler since you said the intercooler was full of fuel. The injectors need to be as close to the throttle body as possible and if they are not then that is the real source of your slow engine revs. Use EV1 body bosch injectors. Get two 30 lbs/hr(310cc/min) injectors and you'll be golden. You can also get ford mustang 310cc/min injectors as they are the same thing. Bosch P/N 0 280 150 945.

Technically since your CIS runs about 1200cc/min of fuel through all six injectors combined and maxxed, you need 660 additional cc's of fuel at around 1 bar. So 310cc injectors will be good to almost 1 bar @ 43.5psi of fuel pressure. This is all based on stock fuel pressure though, @ 5bar a Bosch injector rated for 310cc/min flows just over 500cc/min LOL. They can take the abuse too.

EDIT: Make sure the fuel pump is maxxing out.

JayRash · #28 09-10-2009, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chlippo

What i know about my turbo...Garrett Airesearch T04, it is not new but it still good.
Im running 57mm downpipe to a 2.3 inch exhaut with one free flow muffler and the original muffler at the end.
Charge piping are made of rubber (for the corners) as you can see at the pictures in the top of the thread...it is around 2.3 inch. Ill go for stainless pipes later on.
Is the Intercooler too restrictive...no idea but i dont think so.

Today i had the exhaust cut little after the downpipe so i can test the car again. The car is faster now and the acceleration is better...but it didnt rev more than 6100 rpm.

The other prob today was with the additional injectors. I use Peugeot Mi16 ones...and they couldnt handle the 5 bar presure of the fuel pump, so they started injecting fuel even with no electrical wire on them...which caused the car to die. The other result is that my intercooler was full of fuel that those injectors flowed.
I cleaned the mess, tried a bit better injectors and everything was fine again...
so what injectors will i have to use so they can support the pressure of the fuel pump without blowing...

I skip one after noon and all that takes place, that aint fair

The injectors are after the IC, and the exhaust pipe has to be larger than what we have on the car right now,

Chlippo · #29 09-11-2009, 04:40 AM

here is a few more pictures that shows the setup of the additional injectors, the turbo and the rubber pipes of the IC.
The car is now getting a new larger downpipe and and larger exhaust pipe.
The downpipe will be around 76mm and goes till the first muffler that will be swapped for a free flow one, then two pipes of 50mm each that goes till the last muffler that will be a muffler from an E500.
will post pictures of the new exhaust when it get done

RBYCC · #30 09-11-2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chlippo

here is a few more pictures that shows the setup of the additional injectors, the turbo and the rubber pipes of the IC.
The car is now getting a new larger downpipe and and larger exhaust pipe.
The downpipe will be around 76mm and goes till the first muffler that will be swapped for a free flow one, then two pipes of 50mm each that goes till the last muffler that will be a muffler from an E500.
will post pictures of the new exhaust when it get done

Difficult to see in the picture, but is your injector mounted before the intake plenum on top of the air valve assembly ?

If so it could be problematic.

The fuel atomization will become droplets and may never reach the plenum.

It looks like the boost tubing slopes toward the front of the car.
As the fuel drops out of suspension it will accumulate and run back to the intercooler.
The intake/boost pressure isn't enough to carry a liquid.

Optimum location is downstream of the throttle body.
This gives the best chance of fairly even distribution to all cylinders.