M119 STAND ALONE ON FACTORY INJECTION IN A VINTAGE CAR - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

rwd4evr · #16 01-06-2017, 03:04 AM

I have a r129 m119 for parts, pan and stuff. But it never ran and isn't going to as it sits. If it was cis i would have got it running, but it was stripped when fonzi bought it for a last few bits for his 129.

BenzEnthusiast · #17 01-06-2017, 01:44 PM

These pictures aren't the best quality, but are still useful to show what is required to operate an LH injected M119 on the factory computer.

Roncallo · #18 01-08-2017, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd4evr

I have a r129 m119 for parts, pan and stuff. But it never ran and isn't going to as it sits. If it was cis i would have got it running, but it was stripped when fonzi bought it for a last few bits for his 129.

One thing I didn't realize is that this engine is not running.

I would strongly recommend getting a donor car that runs. This will aid in a lot of trouble shooting and head scratching buy knowing you are starting out with a system that once ran and had no codes. The earlier years will make the job easier but you want to stay away from I believe its 93 to 95 due to wiring and 96 will get you the 5 speed trans, which is a huge plus.

Roncallo · #19 01-08-2017, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duxthe1

I'm going to have to play devil's advocate here. Having built and tuned a Megasquirt system, I would not even consider swapping OE electronics. They were designed and built for a certain engine to perform a certain way in a certain chassis. You're swapping the engine into a vintage chassis that was not designed and built to perform like the donor. As you are finding out the OE electronics are designed to interface across several systems, and include poorly executed "features" like the DBW.

Its my opinion that if you want to swap an engine into a vintage chassis, a stand alone system allows the opportunity to optimally tune the engine to the conditions it will be operating under. I'd assume that the desire to go OE is for a "plug and play" install. You'll likely find it not to be so, and after all the effort to make it work you'll be stuck with a collection of compromises. The stand alone may have a steeper learning curve but once you install it, learn it, and tune it, you wouldn't even consider an OE swap, either.

Well I disagree only because I did swap the OE electronics and they worked beautifully.

rwd4evr · #20 01-09-2017, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roncallo

One thing I didn't realize is that this engine is not running.

I would strongly recommend getting a donor car that runs. This will aid in a lot of trouble shooting and head scratching buy knowing you are starting out with a system that once ran and had no codes. The earlier years will make the job easier but you want to stay away from I believe its 93 to 95 due to wiring and 96 will get you the 5 speed trans, which is a huge plus.

The donor is a running 92 500sel. i have the other engine for the pan and possibly manifolds in a parts car carcass. a 722.6 would be great but would complicate a manual swap more i think(but really dont know). I just dont KNow how much all the modules comunicate, or if it just possibly has a good or bad signal that can be simulated to make everthing look OK to the ecu.

Roncallo · #21 01-09-2017, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd4evr

The donor is a running 92 500sel. i have the other engine for the pan and possibly manifolds in a parts car carcass. a 722.6 would be great but would complicate a manual swap more i think(but really dont know). I just dont KNow how much all the modules comunicate, or if it just possibly has a good or bad signal that can be simulated to make everthing look OK to the ecu.

If you decided to go with the 722.6 you would need and engine and modules that were mated up to the 722.6. Another words you would need a 1996 or later car. I would recommend 1998 because the early 722.6's had issues.

Or you can go with the 722.6 and use an aftermarket transmission controller like PTC unit. Down side of the PTC unit is you loose the plug and play and the adaptive trans control. Plus side if your into performance you will have unlimited tuning capabilities. I find the OE system to be tuned for luxury shifting and kind of lazy on the down shift as in it wants me to think it over for a bit before giving me all 12 cylinders. With the PTC system you get to address that.

Sam can be said for going with and aftermarket engine managment system like Megasquirt. The pros are you get to tune to your liking. But for me I will take the durability of the Mercedes engineered system.

rwd4evr · #22 01-09-2017, 08:50 PM

Im really thinking more about if having an unused module(abs, hydro suspension, transmission ECT.) disconnected is going to cause problems. A manual swap is definitely something I will be doing so any trans hook ups will be gone eventually. Won't that upset the ECU?

duxthe1 · #23 01-09-2017, 09:58 PM

To make it work, at a minimum you'll need the engine control module, throttle control module, and ignition control module. Possibly will also need the base module(power supply). This doesn't even begin to deal with the ASR system. I can't fathom why anybody would go through effort to transplant that system into a car. Most people dealing with it are (desperately) looking for options to remove it. The transmission doesn't have much to do with the engine control though gear recognition may have an effect on idle.

To contrast: If you ditch the awful DBW an MS3 can do programmable sequential fuel with wideband O2 feedback. It can do programmable sequential ignition with knock feedback. (It could also do the dual coil setup if you wanted to keep that.) It can control an idle valve and fuel pump relay. Additional programmable outputs can control things like the cam solenoids and an electric fan (and air pump, and EGR if you want to keep it). If you're feeling squirrely, launch control and nitrous control are also at the wait. If you want to run a manual trans, the shift cut feature would be nice. I'm really just scratching the surface here. Current Megasquirt products make a 25 year old OE system look archaic by comparison. Not to mention that the support from the MS community is unparalleled. Tuner Studio tuning software is also terrific and even includes some self tuning features. The developers utilize user feedback to improve the software. In fact Phil incorporated one of my own suggestions into Tuner Studio.

FWIW, I'm not affiliated with Megasquirt or Tuner Studio in any way. I just use it and it works. Disclaimer: you have to be willing to learn. Learn the system, learn the software, and learn the engine you install it on. The end result will be a direct reflection of the effort you put into it.

rwd4evr · #24 01-09-2017, 10:30 PM

Yes, Thanks for the input. Ive done plenty of reading on ms3, i get all that. I want the ms 3 with the expander for cop ignition. Im just trying to hear what people who have dealt with the system in the 92 500sel(or simialar) think is possible. The sytem in the car is included in the price and ms3 with all the goodies is twice the price of the car. Im not made of money and would like to spread it around as carefully as possible. Ive been watching a bunch of videos on haltec sytems too and they are pretty awsome. The elite is self tuning and has full firmware support from haltec as well as available remote tuning help. if im gonna blow $8-900 on ms3 i would definitly look into how much more the haltec is.

Really i just dont have a grasp on how mercedes has the car wired, and if separated properly will what i need work? What is telling the modules that everthing is operating properly? or do they comunicate at all? Is there high priority modules that must be operating and low priority things that will let it run right without them? i can live with a check engine light because its going in a 60s car. Just trying to gather info, I dont have the car yet.

rwd4evr · #25 01-11-2017, 01:47 AM

"To make it work, at a minimum you'll need the engine control module, throttle control module, and ignition control module. Possibly will also need the base module(power supply). This doesn't even begin to deal with the ASR system. I can't fathom why anybody would go through effort to transplant that system into a car. Most people dealing with it are (desperately) looking for options to remove it. The transmission doesn't have much to do with the engine control though gear recognition may have an effect on idle."

Ahhh ha! The base module! I've been wondering how the modules are powered. What other function does it have besides power? Was Mercedes nice enough to keep their respective wiring separated at all? I guess I need to study a full wiring schematic. Anyone have a link to a wiring diagram for a 1992 500sel?

Raffaelli · #26 01-11-2017, 09:12 AM

Each system has the harness seperate from another in these era benzes. It would be very easy to AKE one work as long as you didn't cut anything and labeled all the plugs as you removed it.

Most other cars on the road use a 1-200 wire harnessfor the whole car and you would have to strip it down quite laboriously.

rwd4evr · #27 01-11-2017, 11:52 AM

Well, that is what I was hoping to hear. But I still haven't heard if the modules communicate with each other and if not having one plugged in is going to be an issue. If I do get the car I guess it's as easy as someone suggested and just start unplugging the un-needed ones. After looking at the diagram that was posted it looks less complicated than I thought originally.

Roncallo · #28 01-12-2017, 09:42 PM

To Megasquirt or not to Megasquirt.

The same questions being asked here are the same I asked myself 10 years ago when putting the M120 V12 into my 560SL. So here was my through process at the time which at the time were based on Megasquirt II.

#1) my donor vehicle was a 1996 SL600 with and ME system, COP ignition and a 5 speed 722.6 transmission. I wanted the COP ignition and the 722.6. At the time I did not see adequate support for COP ignition with 12 cylinders. There were wasted spark solutions that I was confident with but required a distributor. I may be wrong, I did devise theoretical ways of doing it but but going down that path may have proved to be a wast of time which I preferred not to risk.

#2) The 722.6 transmission talks to the ME modules meaning I would have to get the transmission control module to talk to Megasquirt. At the time CAN support for the Megasquirt had just become available but reverse engineering the code would been impractical. But PCS module also became available so the 722.6 transmission could stand alone. However at the time it did not appear to be a plug an play solution.

So at the time I had to decide what would work and work real good. I had a proven solution in my hands and that was the complete wiring harnesses and modules from the SL600. The question was what else would be required to make this all play together. In any case I had it and it was known to work good verses buying stuff and trying it out. Bot h methods would require alot of R&D.

So you might say I cheeped out and went with what I had. Not really there were other issues. I invite you to take a look at the ME module picture presented and compare it to the slide together Megasquirt box. By comparison the Mercedes unit looks like it will survive an EMP strike. I also noticed that most of the people I talked to about this swore up and down how great product like Megasquirt were but I always noticed that they were always reprogramming and tweaking them. I am a little old for that and I wanted a system that was already developed tested and real world road hardened. That can only be the Mercedes OE system. And now 10 years later it has been running flawlessly. This car has traveled the entire eastern seaboard and as far west as Ohio without a hick up. For the first few years until I moved to NC it shared as a daily driver with my stock 560SL.

On the down side:

Had I gone with the Megasquirs/PCS system I could have any rear end gear ratio I wanted. This actually held up the car over a winter as I had to fit it with the SL600 2.65 rear which still is currently an open diff. There is no LSD option available for the 1996 SL600. I am still looking for a European 2.65 diff from a 560SEL.

Also if you are into tuning and optimizing the OE modules are not re-programmable by any means available to me.

As far as what talks to what?

For my ME system, I needed both ME modules (there are 2 for the V12) the basic module, DAS module, Transmission module EGS. I also have the ESP module plugged in but not hooked up to anything. I also needed all the wire harnesses required to connect these modules. I was able to use these wire harnesses without cutting them. They actually fit nicely. I also hooked up the module box cooling fan. And of course if using the 722.6 transmission you will need the same rear end gears as what the donor car had.

To get the system to start I had to disarm the DAS system. Then cut the wires that arm the system and leave the DAS module installed. Note I do not have a transponder DAS system so I'm not sure how this will work with one of those.

97 SL320 · #29 01-13-2017, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roncallo

I also noticed that most of the people I talked to about this swore up and down how great product like Megasquirt were but I always noticed that they were always reprogramming and tweaking them.

This is probably because they can change parameters so they continue to do so or have patched up programming that affects another range and not a reflection of a unstable basic hardware / firmware system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roncallo

On the down side:

Had I gone with the Megasquirs/PCS system I could have any rear end gear ratio I wanted. This actually held up the car over a winter as I had to fit it with the SL600 2.65 rear which still is currently an open diff. There is no LSD option available for the 1996 SL600. I am still looking for a European 2.65 diff from a 560SEL.

I'm finding some evidence that the rear ratio lives in the ABS/ASR/ESP module and not the EGS ( trans computer ) Below is a list of EGS numbers for a 97 SL320 , 97-00 C class and 97 E420 I doubt these all have the same rear ratio but all the # are the same including what seems to be the calibration # 5WK33892 This summer I'm going to swap EGS boxes around and see what happens. I also have STAR so I'm going to poke around there as well.

Also, I have a 38 pin car side plug wired up so I can test every module out of the car. All it takes is pos and neg power to get a module awake and the diagnostic wire to the proper place on the 38 pin. This allows me to change things in a scrap yard module without risking my car.

~~~~~~~~~

My 97 SL320 EGS was replaced at some point.

026 545 02 32 EGS51

5WK33945 F 02W02 ( 2002 WEEK 02 )

~~~~~~~~~~~

97 SL320 ( my spare from e bay ) Tested, works with my car

020 545 92 32 EGS51

5WK33892 97W10 ( 1997 WEEK 10 )

~~~~~~~~~~

97 98 99 00 Mercedes C280 Transmission Computer 0205459232

A 020 545 92 32

0205459232 5WK33892 97W07

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TRANSMISSION CONTROLE MODULE - 1997 MERCEDES E420 210 026545723281

5WK33932 F 01W48 ( The F is Flash mem )

026545723281 ( EXTRA 81 in PN looks to be a replacement part ) ( Numbers close together for replacement parts )

~~~~~~

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roncallo

To get the system to start I had to disarm the DAS system. Then cut the wires that arm the system and leave the DAS module installed. Note I do not have a transponder DAS system so I'm not sure how this will work with one of those.

That era system just disabled the starter and I don't think it talked to the engine computer. The 97 + DAS X metal single button flip key has a transponder that talks to the DAS box behind the instrument cluster then the DAS box talks to the ME enabling fuel.

rwd4evr · #30 01-15-2017, 10:49 PM

Wow. I wish i had the expirience with the later cars to know all of this. Now looking at a couple of the m103 and m104 cars i have i can see at least some of the similar harnesses that will need to be used. But it does seem like its possible with the info you guys have given so far. Was 92 a bad engine harness year or just the 93-95? I really need to find out if the car is asr or not.