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  #1  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:44 PM
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Setting up a M104 and 722.6 to run as a swap

My 450SLC needs a new engine some time in the near future and I came across a 3.6 AMG M104. So I now have that engine and a spare subframe I acquired from a parts car. I'm starting to collect parts so I can hopefully build this powertain on my second subframe allowing me to do a rebuild, mate everything, and figure out mounts and the pan. Then do a winter switcharoo next year. Leaving the exhaust, trans cross member, driveshaft, and a large portion of the wiring to be done with the engine in the car.

If I want to run a M104 with a 722.6 580 transmission and retain the electronic shift can I pull the bellhousing from a w140/w210/w202 M104/722.6 W5A330 car? Then use a later 722.6 with the W5A580 rating? Will I need the earlier conductor plate? If I wanted to save some time and cost up front can I stick a W140 M104/722.6 ecu in the car without carrying over too much of the peripheral electronics? I'm guessing there is a version around 1995-97 that uses the 5 speed and old key that is not paired to the ecu. Would this combination use a W124/W202 style 3 pickup flex plate? I would not mind getting the swap physically in the car and going back and doing a megasquirt in a year or two.
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Last edited by Mighty190; 10-12-2017 at 04:58 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-12-2017, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty190 View Post
My 450SLC needs a new engine some time in the near future and I came across a 3.6 AMG M104.
What year? What electronics came with the engine? Do you have access to the car?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty190 View Post
If I want to run a M104 with a 722.6 580 transmission and retain the electronic shift can I pull the bellhousing from a w140/w210/w202 M104/722.6 W5A330 car?

This will swap, but the BH is part of the front pump so there is a slight bit more work than a 4 bolt swap.

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Originally Posted by Mighty190 View Post
Then use a later 722.6 with the W5A580 rating?

Small motor cars used a different ratio than the C36 and larger motor cars. The trans controller is different between the two. See pic for ratios.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty190 View Post
Will I need the earlier conductor plate?
Nope, the 722.6 showed up in 96 on big cars and 97 in small cars, plate is all the same though there is a revised plate that will accept solenoid covers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty190 View Post
If I wanted to save some time and cost up front can I stick a W140 M104/722.6 ecu in the car without carrying over too much of the peripheral electronics?

I'm guessing there is a version around 1995-97 that uses the 5 speed and old key that is not paired to the ecu.
Nothing in 95 had the 722.6

The 96 V8 / V12 SL and other big cars should have early FI with the 722.6. I'm not sure if this used a chip key or not. 97 was first use of 722.6 in C280 / SL320 / E320 these used a chip key but that isn't any big deal. You need a valid key, DAS box in dash and engine ECU from the same car. The ring antenna is universal.

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Originally Posted by Mighty190 View Post
Would this combination use a W124/W202 style 3 pickup flex plate?
97 C280 / SL320 / E 320 uses the multi window ( 60 - 2 ? ) plate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty190 View Post
I would not mind getting the swap physically in the car and going back and doing a megasquirt in a year or two.
This would be 2x the work for no gain.
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Setting up a M104 and 722.6 to run as a swap-ratios.jpg  
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  #3  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:38 PM
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Ive done MS on my M103 and a PCS TCU for a 722.6 behind a 104.980. If you're serious about the swap I'd just plan to do a standalone ECU and TCU out the gate. If you're going to do all the work of a swap it doesn't make sense to me to handicap yourself with electronic controls not intended to work in your setup. Standalones can be set up to work the way you want from the get go. The learning curve will be steep but the results will make you glad you took the journey. Another member is struggling with late model OE electronics in a 107 V12 swap and everything he cant get the OE stuff to do, my PCS trans controller can be set up to do, no problem.
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  #4  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:50 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Hello

The task you propose will be formidable. Although the link below is for an M120 into a 560SL the required modifications are all the same with possibly the exception of the completely modified subframe and you will have a simpler exhaust.

Also Just because an M120 fit into a 107 does not mean an M104 will go in with no problem. The M120 may very well be lower from crank centerline to top of manifolds than the 104 is from crank CL to top of head. I have about 1/2" clearance between my manifold and hood and that diminishes with both engine torque and over time as the subframe bushings wear. I will try to see if I can grab a measurement on that in the next few days so you can compare.

The promising news is the M103 was installed in the 107 and the 560SL/300SL subframe was clearanced for that engine. My understanding is that the M104 is just an M103 with a 4 valve head but is it taller and how much. So possibly you could grab a 560SL subframe and maybe everything will bolt right in.

One of the things I strongly recommend people do is take all the parts from a running vehicle. In my honest opinion I would say its worth selling everything you have and purchasing a running car to harvest your engine and transmission from if your intent is to use the MB computers. If you go with an aftermarket system then what you have is fine.

Good luck with this and keep in touch if you have any problems.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/performance-paddock/178997-m120-into-560sl-pictures.html
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  #5  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:20 PM
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Lots to reply to here. Thanks for the info. But first. This is out of a 1996, has no electronics, and is basically a long block. I do not want to sell this or cannibalize a running car. Although complicated Im sure I can piece this together. I had to do that with my running c36.

I do know the m103, m110, and m117 subframes are supposedly all the same. So hopefully that works. Ive seen the m120 build and that was an amazing undertaking.

As far as a standalone goes that's the eventual plan. However that is a costly and time consuming project. I really want to do this in phases so it doesn't get out of hand.

As far as the chip key is concerned that really makes reusing an oem ecu not worth the hassle. Im not expecting plug and play but I am trying to avoid getting too deep into a working system. Having done work with standalones and reprogramming and swapping chipped keys on ecus before thats its own project. If I can make the ecu believe its in the car it came out of running a stock 3.2 Ill be perfectly happy for the initial phase. It sounds like thats possible with all 1996 s320 stuff.
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  #6  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:34 PM
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Is it possible to code out the fault I will get from the wrong rear end? My car is currently a 3.07 rear.
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  #7  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:59 PM
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So, you are not going to do factory computers and cheap or easy. You need a donor car to even think about it. Time will be substantial and pretty much the same as the v12 sl project. No way around it.
You could run the m104 with megasquirt or something even cheaper although I would get something that you could use a map someone else has created. Although that is pretty simple. If you want to do it in stages just put a 722.3 in and then swap the 722..6 later.
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  #8  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:10 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
So, you are not going to do factory computers and cheap or easy. You need a donor car to even think about it. Time will be substantial and pretty much the same as the v12 sl project. No way around it.
You could run the m104 with megasquirt or something even cheaper although I would get something that you could use a map someone else has created. Although that is pretty simple. If you want to do it in stages just put a 722.3 in and then swap the 722..6 later.
This sounds like the best approach if you decide to go aftermarket. deal with one issues at a time.
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  #9  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:50 PM
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An intermediate step would be a 722.5 and maybe a w124 ecu right? 5 speed without the computer? That way I get the fab work for the trans cross member and driveshaft done once.

I just don't see how its less work to make a megasquirt harness than to just run an oem ecu and harness that fits the engine unless that needs to communicate with other systems in the car.
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  #10  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:33 AM
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The 722.5 is like 4" longer than the 722.6. The 722.3 is nearly a direct swap. Just redrill the cross member and shift linkage for the .6 later. And you do not need a custom driveshaft or import parts from Europe.
And yes. The factory computers all need to get info from other computers. Even ABS wheel speed is required. Just a simple run engine early 90s stuff is at least HFM, EA,CC, ISC module and wiring those up and get them to work with current ABS system.
IF you want an Me computer with 722.6. Then you need the factory Traction computer and tcu from the same donor or like. And speed sensors set up etc. etc. etc. Then correct gear ratios. Tone rings for said sensors. And a bit more I imagine.
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  #11  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:58 PM
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Ok good point about the 722.3. I might just do that for now.
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  #12  
Old 10-13-2017, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty190 View Post
Lots to reply to here. Thanks for the info. But first. This is out of a 1996, has no electronics, and is basically a long block.
This makes the project more difficult as you will need to scavenge parts from various sources. Having access to a complete car is a much better way to make a conversion even if it is a non C36.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty190 View Post
As far as the chip key is concerned that really makes reusing an oem ecu not worth the hassle. Im not expecting plug and play but I am trying to avoid getting too deep into a working system.
A chip key _IS_ plug and play. I've seen many posts on various brands of boards making a big fuss about chip keys for no good reason. Take a valid key , zip tie / tape it into the antenna. Plug antenna into DAS X box. Connect about 10 wires from DAS X box to ECU harness , plug ECU into harness, connect harness to engine. Turn old style ignition key and drive the car. All DAS X takes is 3 small extra parts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty190 View Post
Having done work with standalones and reprogramming and swapping chipped keys on ecus before thats its own project. If I can make the ecu believe its in the car it came out of running a stock 3.2 Ill be perfectly happy for the initial phase. It sounds like thats possible with all 1996 s320 stuff.
I forgot about the S320, it used 722.6 with a chip key from 97 to 99. I'm not sure what trans the 96 used. Also be aware that MB sometimes makes changes mid year so be sure to gather build dates when researching parts.
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Old 10-14-2017, 02:06 PM
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Thanks. I'm starting to abandon the idea of going straight to the 722.6 and may use a 722.3 with first gear start for the time being. Not as nice of a setup but I'm a big proponent of never letting the car get too far from being operational at any point. This isn't my only project and I don't mind if it takes me a while as long as its not sitting on jackstands for too much of that time.

As far as piecing it together goes there are plenty of m104 cars in junkyards. I am sure that over the next few months I can find all the accessories and wiring bits I need.

The reason the chip key is an issue is I'd have to find a car with the key to pull that from. Otherwise I'll have to deal with reprogramming the key. If I had the time and space to go buy a running M104 car with first gear start I could pull those parts from it but then I'd have to deal with a husk of a car that isn't going to be worth anything when I'm done with it. Its not like I'd want the engine or trans from any $800 parts car I find either. It seems like a lot of hassle for a handful of parts I will eventually phase out. I've done that with 2 ratty R107s at this point for bumpers and stuff and its almost not worth the hassle.

Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't I just pull the ecu and related modules, harness, accessories, and flywheel from a junkyard non asr m104 C280 or E320? Then I can pick up a known good and low mile 722.3xx with first gear start from a 4 cyl and be on my way to doing the various fab tasks I need?
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  #14  
Old 10-14-2017, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
The 722.5 is like 4" longer than the 722.6.
The .5 hydraulic shift 5 speed was only found on the ~ 90 to 93 ish 300SL / 300CE so it isn't very common.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
And yes. The factory computers all need to get info from other computers. Even ABS wheel speed is required. Just a simple run engine early 90s stuff is at least HFM, EA,CC, ISC module and wiring those up and get them to work with current ABS system.
The early 90's stuff is too fiddly / wearing out by now I would not use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
IF you want an Me computer with 722.6. Then you need the factory Traction computer and tcu from the same donor or like. And speed sensors set up etc. etc. etc. Then correct gear ratios. Tone rings for said sensors. And a bit more I imagine.

The 97 C280 / E320 / SL320 and 97 - 99 S320 ME 2.0 / 2.1 is pretty straightforward, the rear end gear ratio is a non issue for what he is doing. ( * see bottom )

Our guy would need:

All the engine mounted stuff for ME ( a few parts are same as HFM )

ME engine harness.

ME ECM , DAS X box , key ( all of this _must_ be from same VIN )

Antenna ring around ignition sw for key, TCU , ABS / ASR computer only, no pump is needed ( these parts can be from a different VIN but generally must be same model. Some cars have ASR which amounts to a 4 channel ABS rather than 3 and some different programming )

Throttle pedal sensor. These are drive by wire, fortunately the throttle sensor is still operated be a cable under the hood making a conversion easy.

722.6 trans with an internal gear ratio that matches the TCU ratio.

Gear shifter that matches the TCU type. (need for EGS51 P R N D 4 3 2 1, not EGS52 P R N D - + )

Aftermarket electronic speedometer fooler.

*
As I see it, only input from the "car" this conversion needs is wheel speed.

Wheel speed is fed into the ABS / ASR computer then it talks to the ECM and TCU over a CAN bus. An electronic speedometer fooler is all that one needs to correct for a different rear end ratio. You might be able to tap into the existing wheel speed sensor but a 2nd speed sensor mounted to the existing tone wheel would keep both systems separate.

I'm reasonably sure that the instrument cluster isn't involved in any ABS / ECM / TCU communication.

The ABS / ASR will fault out if it doesn't see all of the wheel speeds, I'm reasonably sure that if one rear wheel speed sensor is operational, it won't put the trans into limp. Even if it did, providing signal to the other inputs would not be an issue to solve this problem.

As for the cars original ABS, I'd think it would still work but I don't know enough about that system to say for sure.
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  #15  
Old 10-14-2017, 09:42 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 SL320 View Post
The .5 hydraulic shift 5 speed was only found on the ~ 90 to 93 ish 300SL / 300CE so it isn't very common.



The early 90's stuff is too fiddly / wearing out by now I would not use it.




The 97 C280 / E320 / SL320 and 97 - 99 S320 ME 2.0 / 2.1 is pretty straightforward, the rear end gear ratio is a non issue for what he is doing. ( * see bottom )

Our guy would need:

All the engine mounted stuff for ME ( a few parts are same as HFM )

ME engine harness.

ME ECM , DAS X box , key ( all of this _must_ be from same VIN )

Antenna ring around ignition sw for key, TCU , ABS / ASR computer only, no pump is needed ( these parts can be from a different VIN but generally must be same model. Some cars have ASR which amounts to a 4 channel ABS rather than 3 and some different programming )

Throttle pedal sensor. These are drive by wire, fortunately the throttle sensor is still operated be a cable under the hood making a conversion easy.

722.6 trans with an internal gear ratio that matches the TCU ratio.

Gear shifter that matches the TCU type. (need for EGS51 P R N D 4 3 2 1, not EGS52 P R N D - + )

Aftermarket electronic speedometer fooler.

*
As I see it, only input from the "car" this conversion needs is wheel speed.

Wheel speed is fed into the ABS / ASR computer then it talks to the ECM and TCU over a CAN bus. An electronic speedometer fooler is all that one needs to correct for a different rear end ratio. You might be able to tap into the existing wheel speed sensor but a 2nd speed sensor mounted to the existing tone wheel would keep both systems separate.

I'm reasonably sure that the instrument cluster isn't involved in any ABS / ECM / TCU communication.

The ABS / ASR will fault out if it doesn't see all of the wheel speeds, I'm reasonably sure that if one rear wheel speed sensor is operational, it won't put the trans into limp. Even if it did, providing signal to the other inputs would not be an issue to solve this problem.

As for the cars original ABS, I'd think it would still work but I don't know enough about that system to say for sure.
That's about the way my car is setup. But sourcing parts from multiple cars is risky. If something goes wrong you wont know if its a part incompatibility or not. Also I don't this his 96 has a chip in the key my 96 SL600 did not. But the key taped to the antenna thing is my planed way out for my next build.
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