T5 transmission to Iron Block M116/117
 

I'm starting a new thread specific to my project as to not further dilute the original non MB transmission thread. I dropped off my design, bellhousing and T5 input shaft bearing retainer with the fabrication shop today. I should be able to pick it up in a few weeks. I'm having it made as a rectangular plate with no bolt holes. When I fit it up I can determine the shape to provide for the overlap of the 2 mating surfaces. Not sure of the cost but I can't imagine it would be that much for a steel plate with a hole and a groove. I may have the plate surfaced to assure absolute flat and parallel surfaces.

The adaptor plate is done but I can't go get it until next Thursday. Anxious to see the fit.

Picked up the parts today. It is exactly as I expected. At this point it is a rectangle. I don't want to cut the final shape until I determine the layout and hole locations to insure there is adequate material. I may need to machine some of the bellhousing center to allow for the TO bearing. After cutting and drilling(but before tapping) the plate I'm going to have it surfaced to insure it's flat and parallel. I did not want to do any cutting or welding on the bellhousing and affect it's integrity. The 7.85" T5 input shaft gave me enough length to use a interface plate without cutting the bellhousing. total cost:$265

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Also I wanted to use the original 3.5 flywheel/clutch/starter to decrease the complexity of the project. The transmission input shaft/interface plate combination gave me enough pilot shaft engagement with the pilot bearing I did not need a custom flywheel with integral pilot bearing.

I have 2x factory 4 speeds for the cast iron block, but no viable flywheel. Where did you acquire one? 10+ years ago, a new one from the classic center was like 1,500$. Hate to think of what it is now.

-cth

My car is a Euro 111 3.5 coupe with manual so it was always there. I would think one could have a custom flywheel made for less than an original. I started to go down the custom flywheel route then decided the original will be fine for my use. My main motivation for this project is to use a common, un expensive 5spd transmission in place of my un replaceable original stick shift(with poor gear spacing). Of course this would be useful for someone converting a iron block engine to stick shift. I will have less than $1k into the bell including parts and some of my time so that's a lot less than I figured when I started. Once I get it mocked up on an engine block I can see where the TO bearing needs to go and deal with that. I can have a pilot bushing made of C932 for very reasonable. I would rather have a bushing than a bearing-the bearings break apart. The TO bearing in my car was broken when I pulled the trans off. The input shaft was basically unsupported.

I was doing some driveshaft research and came across this and had to share it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuGqNOhvL1M
The comments are pretty hilarious. I hope the guys that did this are not driving next to me on the freeway when it breaks

Got the plate back from the second operation-cutting to shape and surfacing. Now it's ready to drill/tap. Total cost of plate-$480. I'm very pleased with it.

That looks very professional! Good planning.

The design was pretty low tech. I used Masonite cutouts of the bell and transmission overlayed to come up with the shape. I probably left more than the necessary amount of material at the perimeter but what's a few extra lbs for peach of mind. The transmission mounting surface is a-symmetrical but I made it symmetrical so if the shop messed up with the pattern it would still work-a little extra material. The machine shop did an excellent job with the fitment of the bell and output shaft. A light tap seats them.

Got the plate pretty much finished. The bolt patterns between the bellhousing and transmission were close so there was some interference since I used as many nut/bolt connections as possible. I was able to nut/bolt the 4 transmission bolts and 5 of the 11 bellhousing bolts. On the interfering bolts I used socket head bolts so the relief cut would be as small as possible. Overall happy with the result. Next step is to bolt it up to a engine and check the bellhousing alignment.

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The next aspect I am looking at is the driveshaft. I have wanted to stay as close as possible to the original design and not go the one piece route as a 1 piece will be too long with the 3.27 rear axle and would be too large dia to fit in the tunnel. I had believed a 2 piece shaft might work with the rear longer section center bearing lining up with my front bearing mount. After obtaining the shaft and comparing I find the 1/2" difference falls within the slots for center bearing adjustment. My intention was to shorten the front section and have a new tube yoke welded in to accommodate a 1310 u joint to interface the slip yoke. the small front section is 1.78"OD and 1.606"ID with .087" thickness. I can get a tube yoke with a slightly larger OD and have it turned down the few thou in needs. The 3 piece shaft in the pic is the original one from my coupe.

Took the yoke and tube to the machine shop today. They said they would turn the ID of the tube rather than the OD of the yoke. So not much to do until I can get the length established and the shop will cut the tube square, turn it to the correct ID for a press fit to the yoke and weld it. Then I will have the u joints/CB replaced and balanced.

So I measured my bellhousing alignment and it is about .005" off. There is a few thou of play in the bellhousing/intermediate flange connection. If I hold it and tighten the bellhousing/engine block bolts I can get rid of some of it. So not sure if I should be concerned.

That looks pretty nice. Was it done on a cad machine? I'd love to buy one! I got a euro 4.5 waiting and i don't want to hurt my 4 speed with the fairly significant increase in power. Plus overdrive and a more reasonable 1234 split. Nice job on the design, are you planning on trim the center to make way for a hydraulic throwout bearing or add a ball stud and use a fork and slave maybe?

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Get it tight and measure run out with a magnet base on the crank.

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Good point Jason-Once I installed all the bolts the runout came down to .004". I had the magnetic base on the flywheel. You can have it made-just take the bellhousing and input bearing retainer to the fab shop and have it done. You would have better control of the quality. With my shop each one would probably be different. I can post pics of the layout cutouts if you like. I'm sure it was done on manual equipment-this is a old school machine shop. But I was impressed with the accuracy. I was expecting more runout. As far as the TO bearing I have over 3" of space from the flat surface inside the bell to the pressure plate fingers. Plenty of space for a concentric TO bearing. There is a little less input shaft pilot engagement based on measurements than the original but I have not measured it with the trans on the engine.

Yeah I suppose I can get it done on the Haas at my work(been laid off from there but...), I just figured if they had CNC'd it they could knock another out. Oh I meant to say also that the stock Ford pilot bearing is a match for Mercedes crank. It may need a touch from one report but freezing it may do the trick.

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The bushing is inexpensive so I may get one to check it out. For some reason I thought the OD was different. I may need a longer bushing made if I don't have enough input shaft engagement. The webbing in the bottom of the bell gives pretty good access for inspection.

I just looked over all of this and the pics again. That came out really good. Looks solid. Simple. Very repeatable. If I never stumbled into the v8 4 speed I have it's very posiible I would have gone for about exactly this setup. Basically what I had planned for a 6cyl swap with a t5 and my manual bell, but the auto bell actually is better with that raised center register. Huge thumbs up for going through with it and now we can see it will work without possibly throwing money away . I guess thats actually a good surface for the throwout bearing to sit. Or would you have a collar on the bearing retainer snout for the slave to sit? Any worry on flex if not?
As far as a flywheel, its great to have the original, but if you don't, the iron block ring gear diameter gives a ton more room for a 8 bolt crank f-150 flywheel cut down to bolt into an auto ring gear. super cheap, only one bolt hole off. Any mustang nice lightweight aluminum flywheel and clutch also. Really opens up a clutch range too. Shouldn't cost near as much as a Benz Flywheel or clutch after machining. I'm glad I can side step that cost for now, as I'm sure you do, but I've got a bunch of cars and I'd really rather not destroy this stuff that's so rare. I'm not taking my drift car apart till I have a setup I know will work either.
It looks like the driveshaft was meant to be like that. That was a 2 piece w108 v8 driveshaft right?
This excites me for a couple of my cars. My 230s would be great with the 3.5 in my rusty 350se and a t5 . I always thought when I got my first fintail I was dreaming the possibility of getting my hands on a 3.5 and manual trans and turbocharging it. I think it would be a low boost setup and put down similar power to your 5.6 but not as torqey down low. But just getting in there stock would be a step toward getting that one on the road and sorted over some time. It's rust free free for now but I gotta get it moving before it starts to suffer any more outside.
Your car is going to be a riot with 300hp and the 5 speed. It will be a game changer for usability and fun. I highly suggest getting the suspension tuned/stiffened a bit! Do you have Cox Racing polyurethane bushings? How is the v8 coupes suspension tuned? I've never driven one with any power really. My sedan was pretty rolly but it still handled pretty well.

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I have a lot planned for the car but it is somewhat valuable and rare so I don't want to go crazy on it-reversible mods in the spirit of the original. I believe suspension is standard 108 fare as is the chassis. I did begin an air suspension conversion based on 109 front control arms and got it so I could load it on a trailer but that's about it. I have all the parts to make the "new" 2 piece driveshaft but I can't have the yoke welded until I can establish the length with engine/trans in the car. I'll post a pic later. I was very pleased how the adaptor worked out. Since the pattern of the trans/bell was close there were some interference issues since I wanted to use as many nut/bolt connections as possible and not threaded in the plate. I used socket head bolts and a few reliefs to work around it.

Yeah I would love to have a coupe but it's a pretty slim chance I ever will, well at least a real one. I like the fins on the sedan anyway. I've been plotting and planning to build a two door fintail for years. I'll start when my Fab skills are up to it from building junk and learning. Lengthening the doors will be the essential thing. Anyway there's a guy cox racing that used to race a w111 3.5 coupe. He made a full polyurethane bushing kit. I just bought his last set for the w110 I'm Building for a customer. He tried to sell me the molds too but I didn't have the cash. I'm sure he's got them still. It's all bolt in stuff. Rear control arms, both ends. Sway bar and the eccentrics In the front half leaves. I think it needs them in the panhard bar/link thing and the rear axle horn mount. He said he still felt something moving/flexing back there but never got to doing anything about it. Moved on to racing bikes. Im really thinking the swing axle will go away in my ideal build but......
Oh could you give me a rough size of the plate overall? It's 1/2 " right? There are some scrap pieces around at the machine shop I work at I may be able to my hands on.

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I did buy the Cox bushings and SS brake lines years ago but progress stalled before I installed them. His 3.5 coupe was the inspiration for a lot of my ideas.
I studied the adaptor quite a bit before I spent money on it. So far I have about $1300 into it including the transmission and driveshaft. I figure about $1500 more to get it finished so that's not bad. I already have the flywheel though. Now it's mostly waiting until I can get my shop done and get the car out of storage. In light of the present situation that may take longer that I expected.

Which one? Coronavirus or riots?

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Coronavirus. There has been an interruption in building supplies and the local building officials are not processing permits.

I'm looking at the Pilot bearing/bushing. I have about .55" of engagement past the crank face. I would be more comfortable with .75" or more. Also the Ford bushing is 1.379" and the MB bore is 1.3755" so the interference would be .0035". I would have to beat the he-- out of it to get it in. I have a guy that can make a C93200 bushing for $75 any size I want so I'm thinking about that. I can make it longer to take advantage of the deep bore and have it extend about .25" past the crank face for more support. It would be about 1.1" long. My question is on the interference fit-how much? The best I can come up with is .002" for a bronze bushing in steel. there would be a lot of the bushing in the crank-like .8".

I don't know how much bronze shrinks but freezing overnight made my pilot bearing fall in and then get nice and tight. My other thought on a bushing/bearing was a steel/aluminum insert in the crank with a correct size hole for a needle bearing. Not sure if tgat would be a good idea but it's one that crossed my mind. If getting a couple of those bushings made makes them cheaper let me know. I can think of at least two I'd like to have.

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I'm not fond of needle bearings-I've had several fail including my 3.5. I will find out about quantity. I was thinking about freezing it with dry ice.

There was a needle bearing in your 3.5? That's interesting. My 4 speed uses a roller bearing. It calls for a open bearing with some odd seal that goes in after it. I replaced it with a high temp sealed bearing. I wonder if they are the same trans essentially or significantly different.

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I just assumed it was a needle bearing-it's all gone but the shell. After more careful measuring the pilot bearing bore I got 1.3775' which is close to the logical 35mm so the Ford bearing might fit after all.

Got the Ford 1.379" OD bushing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/RAM-Clutches-BU50H-Pilot-Bushing-Ford-1-379-OD-0-672-ID-0-750-Depth/114217790558?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 As you mentioned Jason it fits the MB bore. Froze it and started to install it but it seemed to go in easier than I expected so I stopped and pulled it out before it warmed up and much went it. I measured and found there is .001" of interference which corresponds to the bore being 35mm. I would be more comfortable with a little more interference. I'm thinking about using a high strength/high temp sleeve retainer product like Loctite 640. If the bushing ever needed to be removed it could be drilled out and then split when thin.

I just grabbed a t5 from a 2001 v6 mustang yesterday. I. Didn't take it but it had a needle bearing pilot. Like a sleeve witb a thin wall caged needle bearing in it do that rides directly on the input shaft pilot tip. The trans is yge same as the sn 95 5.0 units with the 3.35 first gear sets. Rated at 260ft lbs. They will take considerably more. Check those bearings out maybe.

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I have heard bad things about the needle bearings breaking up and ruining the transmission. Nothing can go wrong with a bronze bushing except normal wear so I feel more comfortable with that. I thought about pursuing the later T5 with the flange output but in the end it looked like another hurdle and the slip yoke interface should work good for me. I might go out to my storage unit and try to raise up my coupe and mock up the transmission so I can get measurements for the driveshaft and check shifter location.

This is a slip yoke trans. 2004^ are flange i believe and have the remote shifter. I did grab the DS with slip yoke rear bolt on flange yoke and even the splined flange that bolts on the pinion gear. I was gonna grab the axle but it had a ton of play in the gears and it was only a 7.5" not a 8.8.
Its been a long time and it was a 6 cyl but I think I had the shifter in the right place aprox with the sn95 style t5. I

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Pilot bushing installed. It is .75" deep and has .25" extension which gave me the .75" pilot engagement I wanted. Crank turns with no binding or interference with the input shaft. Next is to install mock up in the car to determine drive shaft length, shifter location and trans mount design.

Tony,

Is the steel shell of the pilot bushing part of the Ford supplied piece, or is it an adapter that you made/had made?

It is part of the bushing:https://www.ebay.com/itm/RAM-Clutches-BU50H-Pilot-Bushing-Ford-1-379-OD-0-672-ID-0-750-Depth/114217790558?hash=item1a97e92c5e:g:~IMAAOSw~HhetnNx

I managed to get the transmission mocked up in the car(in difficult storage unit conditions!). The transmission fit fine physically but as I suspected the bulky shifter box hit the floor with about 1.5" to go. I do not want to cut the floor so I will look at another solution-possibly a front shift tail housing with some kind of remote shifter. The other concern is the driveshaft. The small front section is only going to be about 10" long with the longer transmission. It will be difficult to get the correct geometry with such a short section. I am looking into shortening the longer rear section to my rear center bearing mount and having a longer front section made. That would create 2 pieces about 26" each. I looked at the posiblilty of a 1 piece shaft but no way the large tube would fit as the tunnel was designed for the small 1.75" tubing.

I think the clearance issue can be solved with a S-10 tailhousing that places the shifter box at the front where there is ample room. The tunnel is much higher at the front of the tailhousing and I measure several inches of clearance. The later Mustang V6 T5 is similar but uses a bolt on CV joint instead of a slip yoke and a remote shifter. I might give it a better look.

You may have an output shaft lenght issue with the different tailshaft housing. As long as it's a world-class t5 s10 trans you are probably able to swap it though. A non WC may work but I'm not sure. Astro performance can probably help with that if they are around still. It could be the same lenght though possibly. I used to have a chart on lenghts for them. I'll see if I can dig it up.

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The WC S10 tail housing is a direct swap. The slip yoke bushing needs to be changed and a S10 shift rod will be needed. There are a few on Ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/S10-Tail-Housing-T5-2wd-World-Class-Electric-Speedo-USED-Rear-Extension-Hsg/173770337335 They are electronic speedo but there are solutions. I'm going to do some careful measurements first.

Tony:

It seems fair to ask what may very well be questions that you have already answered for yourself:
What is the relationship of the original shifter location (the hole in the floor of the car), and the positions of both the Ford, and the S10, shifter locations? Are either of them even close to being in the MB location? If not, how long of a remote shifter would be required?

Hi Frank,
The issue is with the current shifter "box" on the Mustang tail housing. It is large and protrudes above the tail housing in a location where the trans tunnel is small (due to the shorter original transmission). Just forward of that location the trans tunnel is much larger. I really don't want to make any new holes. The S10 shifter box is in an area just before the tunnel narrows down so I am hopeful there will be enough room for any shift linkage I may need to extend the shifter. I have seen several viable solutions for the shifter on the net. Just depends on how much room.

Also the shifter "Box" is quite a bit larger than the existing shifter hole but it would still hit the floor even if it lined up. The pic shows the Mustang shifter box and the original shifter hole. Also more room at the front of tail housing if you can see.

The GM shifter "boxes" are the same width (3 1/2") as the Ford, but are shorter (4 - 4 1/4") fore-aft. Would the GM dimensions work if positioned at the hole in the floor?

If it were in the exact correct location it might work. It would need to come through the existing shifter hole in the floor or the box would hit. The Camero tail housing has the box at the end of the tail housing. I'm going out and taking some more measurements tomorrow.

Tony, there will need to be a bit of floor opening clearance around the shifter to allow for engine movement on the mounts; 1/4" is probably minimum.
Could you see your way to doing a little floor trimming if necessary?

Yea I might. I was hoping not to make any holes. I don't plan on ever selling the car and by time it goes it won't matter to me anyway. the original shifter opening is pretty small. something like this might work for the shifter. It is low profile: https://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/item/3819132/10399030.htm

I'm guessing your car doesn't have the access panel the early floor shift 4 speed cars have, forward of your shifter position correct?

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