my next mod: Bi-Xenon HID headlamp upgrade - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

ke6dcj · #16 06-09-2003, 02:32 PM

See the part numbers and caveats above.

:-) neil

Cannoli · #17 06-09-2003, 04:45 PM

Actually, I'm going to upgrade the 500E OEM Lights to an E-code (spec) Assembly. I was looking at the Hella E-codes ... you mentioned "BOSCH" E-codes. What's the difference?

Scott:

A Pencil beam is a physics term used to describe a form (shape) of an electromagnetic (EM) beam of energy. Light is a part (based on frequency) of the EM spectrum and a Pencil beam is a very 'tight' or 'narrow' shape of a beam. Think of this ... take a typical Mag-Light and rotate the lense assembly to turn it on and off ... the beam shape varies from a Broad beam to a Pencil beam.

Schools out ... drive safe.

run.exe · #18 06-09-2003, 04:53 PM

Thanks, Norm; however, I was inquiring re: the context, here.

May I infer that we are referring to low-beams when we use the "pencil" term?

gsxr · #19 06-09-2003, 04:58 PM

Normally the "pencil" term is used for high-beam, long-range lights. Low beams are short-range, with a broad spread of light in front of the car. That's one of the reasons Dan Stern says not to have high & low beam filaments on at the same time (as the MBCA page "recommends"), it will put too much light close to the front of the car, when for high beams you want the light farther away. Otherwise your pupils close up a bit from all the "nearby" light, reducing your long-range vision. I'm not explaining this well but you might kind of get the idea. With relays, large wire, 14+ volts at the battery, and Philips Rally bulbs, you'll have more light than you can imagine!

run.exe · #20 06-09-2003, 05:05 PM

Neil (et al.),

Please elaborate upon/explain in more detail the required "relays."

I need to put together a shopping-list, ASAP.

Thank you,

gsxr · #21 06-09-2003, 05:40 PM

Just a quick note... relays are not needed with a Xenon HID conversion. They're just to allow maximum voltage to normal incandescant H3/H4 bulbs.

ke6dcj · #22 06-09-2003, 05:43 PM

Yep, the nice thing about HID's are no real need for relays.

BTW: do some reading at: http://lighting.mbz.org

Illuminating

neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E

run.exe · #23 06-09-2003, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ke6dcj
Yep, the nice thing about HID's are no real need for relays.

BTW: do some reading at: http://lighting.mbz.org

Illuminating

neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E

Yes - however, based on your 40-45% efficiency comments, I think the halogen upgrade is the wisest choice.

gsxr · #24 06-09-2003, 05:47 PM

Re: 40-45% efficiency vs halogens... that would be a GREAT question for Dan Stern, maybe ask him and post his reply here?

mike690003 · #25 06-09-2003, 05:48 PM

do i smell contradiction??
yes i do,and it aint from Calvin Klein.

who say installing HID only gets you 45% efficiency??

run.exe · #26 06-09-2003, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ke6dcj
Because the headlamp assembly for all W124's including 500E's are NOT designed for the "arc" light of a HID,
you're only getting about 45% efficiency.

:-) neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E

Neil,

Are you referring to NON-Euro spec, E-code (i.e. - U.S. market, OEM) W124 lights, only?

mike690003 · #27 06-09-2003, 05:56 PM

thats really hard to believe !! Daniel Stern..Shed some "Light" on this matter please.

ke6dcj · #28 06-09-2003, 06:13 PM

Yep! Based upon the INCREASED glare and non-focused "arc" light of an HID in a Halogen-based reflector, you are BRIGHTER but now have WORSE forcused light.

http://faq.auto.light.tripod.com/retro-vs-oem.htm

Excerpt:
"Beam focal points:
The headlight reflectors and lenses of OEM HID headlights (=optics) are engineered specifically for use with HID arc capsules. The design not only considers the source focal points, but the amount of lumen to be distributed. These factors are often overlooked when retrofitting is considered. OEM HID optics distributes the increased lumen output of this bulb farther ahead on the road, wider to both sides, and directly in front of the subject vehicle. This provides motorists with much WIDER AND DEEPER night time vision.
By contrast, halogen headlight optics do not spread the light to the degree of OEM HID. This is simply because a 55 watt halogen bulb (or even a 100 watter) cannot match the lumen output of HID. A lower number of lumens means less light to spread out. And a bigger portion of the total light output have to be placed where its mostly needed: straight ahead.
Now, consider what what happens when someone inserts a 2800-3200 lumen HID arc capsule into a headlight designed to distribute only 1/3 of this amount of light. Suddenly, there's too much light in areas that does not need more light: above the focal point. This is known as glare. "

Although a MB hasn't been tested, here are some results:

http://faq.auto.light.tripod.com/car-tested-retro.htm

Remember, it's all about the optics.

:-) neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E

mike690003 · #29 06-09-2003, 06:23 PM

thats why i added glare shields to my D2S bulbs and I have the european andjustable headlights in my 300e. I have my housing "adapted" for HID. Before i "adapted" my headlights drivers thought I had my brights on, now after my modifications and adjustments my light is spread evenly and there is NO glare towards oncoming traffic. My efficiency is about 85-90%

ke6dcj · #30 06-09-2003, 06:23 PM

Don't gamble your $$$ on HID's for the W124. I've yet to see a complete kit that addresses all the issues as listed below.

Taken from:
http://faq.auto.light.tripod.com/hl-hid-kits.htm

:-) neil
================

HID kits for use in halogen headlamp systems:

Are HID kits "Plug and Play" as advertising says?
Experience has shown that upgrading a light system correct is NOT plug and play as every single HID kit pusher wants you to belive. There are one good reason to ask seller at least 10
questions before purchasing any kit: $500!

Who are the producers of HID kits?
Kits are made in everything from basements to half professional facilities.
Its a small world:
Suvlights is in the CA, US. They have all kinds of OEM and non OEM parts for doing all kinds of headlight upgrades, even connectors in loose weight.
Phoenix Micro-Lite Inc. (US) has disappeared from the web.
Hid Kits is in TX, USA. Unlike all others, they make their own ballast. Does it really have the same quality as OEM ballasts?
Autolamps are in the UK. They use Philips ballasts and bulbs only.
HANA, makes Vision kits, are in Korea. K2 Kits (10 out of 100 bulbs has been reported defective. After having quality issues with self made ballast and Osram ballast, Matshu****a was
tried for a while with execellent quality. Appearantly, they are now back a new version of their own ballast.) is a derivative product of Vision.
SIJ in Taiwan. Bulbs have been spotted with SIJ label. SIJ is made by the company Mycarr Auto Acessories Co Ltd., which rebases even Philips HID bulbs.
Xenon Werks is in Asia. Owned by MTC Lighting (Malaysia) SB. MTC Lighting also owns and operate the US based Hidforless. There has been quality issues with some hidforless kits.
PIAA are in Japan. They started up with light bulbs only. Wonder if they are going away from ligthing? Other automotive accessories like winshieldwipers and storage boxes are now
visible on their website.
BellOfHID are in Japan. Ther ballasts are made by Panasonic. Catz HID kits are basically relabled BellOfHID kits.
Xenon Depot is in Thornhill, ON, Canada.
Mtec-GmbH is in Frankfurt, Germany. They cooperate with Autolamps-online.com. They make the "Xenall" kit that are distrubuted around europe and Australia. They also sell highly
effcient FF-lamps for LeMans cars. This must not be confused by the Japanese comapy Maruta Technology (also shorted MTEC)

Who sells HID kit?

What is the best HID kit?
To be general, there is no answer to this question.

Different outcome for same application: All halogen housings are different, even if they use the same bulb type. Some housings require shielding, some dont. Some require
custom shield. Some housings simlply cannot be retrofitted with HID
Application variance: A kit for lets say H1 from a certain kit manufacturer is excellent, but a 9006 kit can be really bad.
Production and quality variances: Even if you have bought the excact same kit 6 months ago doesnt mean you will get the same parts nor quality if ordered today. Some kits
are hand made, some are partially hand made, some are totally automatically made.

Dont gamble away $500 on a HID kit as so many car enthusiasts have done.

How do I recognice that a HID kit is worth buying?
The base of the bulb is either custom molded in high temp plastic or rebased using high temp epoxy (not available in your local HW store!) using materials like stainless steel or
aluminum.
Has high quality harness with the following specs: 105C degree rated insulation, 12-14AWG wire, relays fed from battery/alternator.
2 versions available, with or without shield - even for 9005/9006 and H7, not only H4.
Full instruction describing install process, where to (not) mount ballast, troubleshoting guide, including overview over experiences with the most popular cars.
Original bulb clip will still fit.
HID bulb does not occupy more space than an halogen bulb.
Purchase option for HID bulb return wire facing up or down. Select: For projector based only: facing down. Reflector headlights only: you should try both directions for best results or
follow sellers recommandation.
Money back guarantee within 14 days or more - even if the bulb has been tried into a housing and has received no scrathes.
Splash proof ballast and connectors

How do I recognice that a HID kit is NOT worth buying?
Seller claims 200W light output. Light output is measured in lumens, not watt.
Halogen base glued onto a modified D2* bulb with low temprature (corner HW store) epoxy.
Lack of, too thin, or too low temprature rated, wireing harness.
Lack of relays, or incorrect wiring of relays.
No glare shield on the bulb. (A must for reflector based headlamps)
Vague or no instructions.
Lack of warning that stock clip might not fit.
Lack of warning that stock rear headlight cover does not fit due to lack of space.
Lack of information about how much deeper the HID bulb is compared to Halogen.
Lack of purchase option for HID bulb return wire facing up or down. Projector units only: if return wire faces up, it will create a bad shadow on the ground. Reflector headlights only:
you should try both directions for best results.
Lack of return policy.
Insufficient water protection of ballast and connectors.

Description on how to approach problem areas described above is described by on this site.

Does Philips make HID conversion kit?
No, anyone trying to sell you a kit made by Philips is is a scam. Philips has a world wide reputation to take of and will never make something that can be unsafe. Bulb and ballast
might be made by Philips, but Philips will only be a 3rd party supplier of parts to the person or company that puts the kit together. As you can see in the "How do I recognice that a HID
kit is worth buying?" section, there are more parts and ingenuety going into a high quality conversion kit.

Does Hella make HID conversion kit?
No - for the same reason as above. See what Hella has to say about illegal retrofit kit.

Custom based versus modded base of a D2 HID bulb
Gluing d2s glass capsule to an already existing halogen base is a cheaper way of producing kits than having a machine glue on a custom high temperature resistant base. If used
correct materials and enough R&R is put into the final product, the results should be the same. Unfortunatly, some kit manufacturers settle for less than OEM quality standards, and
totally overlook that standard hardware store glue cannot be used on the bulb, or lack of adequate equipment for focal point verification in the production line, or similar.

What is the difference between OEM Bi-Xenon and aftermarked Bi-Xenon kits?
OEM Bi-Xenon usually has a moveble projector shield with a optimized reflector and curved lens. Aftermarked Bi-Xenon is ment to replace dual filament halogen bulbs H4, 9004, and
9007. Most 9004 and 9007 headlights are not suitable for the higher lumens of an HID bulb, so take precautions if you consider this. There are a couple of H4 Bi-Xenon systems out there:

- The "HID Plus with a moveable "spoon" for H4 headlamps that will block/unblock light downwards. The included ballast were first Osram, but were later changed to the well known
Philips/Hella. The blue coated bulb and hardware are made in Asia. They were first released in 7000K around march 2002. They are also sold by autotoys.com. In fall 2002 a 9000K version
came out. US Distrubutor is appearantly SPW Industries. HID Plus goes under the name Magatech in Japan. The supplier is the Korean trading firm KDG
This is Eddie's comment:
I'm a former clamshell HID user... took it off my truck after a week of driving with it. Low beam pattern spread was actually less than OEM halogen. High beam is a joke. They were so
blue, bluer than a cheap blue tinted halogen. The seller says violet hue, those things are going to be extremely purple, probably more than u ever want.

- Hidkits.com solution with a retractable bulb using a spring loaded solenoid. Burner brand is unknown. Ballasts are made in house. "Highlandsun" has tested them and posted results
here.

- Autolamps-online solution with a retractable bulb using a spring loaded solenoid. It is based on Philips ballast and burner, which is more or less the reference for quality nowadays.

Things to consider:
Availability on replacement bulb. Every seller claims 2-3000 hours life. What if it does break anyway? Would they be available 3 years down the road?
You could drive one eyed for a week and half while new bulbs are mail ordered.
You could have a regular H4 in the glove compartment, but will your wiring harness still work with the old bulbs? You will probably be pulled over for having a bulb out.
You could order a spare for the glove compartment, which is kind of costly.
Will the HID bulb withstand the G-forces over time made by solenoid?
If bulb is deeper in the rear, you possibly have to open up the weatherproofing, and develop a solution for yourself. Again, the Plug And Play rule.....