What is it worth. 1987 190E 2.3-16V w 38k? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

HGV · #1 01-29-2004, 12:18 AM

it is a 87 190E 2.3-16v . third owner. car has 38k miles. Documents go back 10years. Minor hand size dent under filer cap. Willl look at the car tomorrow. asking is $15.8k. Champ exterior. Non-stock radio. New Remus stainless exhaust.

henry

Glen · #2 01-29-2004, 02:18 PM

Assuming it was stored in a garage, with mileage that low, I would imagine the interior to be nearly perfect, like new. And other than the one small dent, the paint/body should also be pristine...costmetically, it should appear almost new.

Mechanically...I'd be looking at all the suspension bushings very closely. Rubber ages as much as it wears out. If it hasn't been driven much, the hydrostruts are probably leaking and will need to be replaced.

Check for oil/fluid leaks in the engine bay...gaskets tend to dryout and leak on low mileage cars that haven't been driven.

Itgb · #3 02-03-2004, 04:22 AM

Not worth $15k. I wouldn't offer more than $12.5k because you will have to replace things right away on an 18yr old car with such low mileage.

90free400e · #4 02-03-2004, 09:59 PM

ITGB, sorry to go off topic. But i freakin love your car. That thing looks so damn good its not even funny. That is what a 190 should look like. Great lookin car man.

super SEC · #5 02-03-2004, 10:25 PM

I ran it on www.KBB.com and it spit out around $5,000 for private party sale with 38,000 miles and it excellent condition. No way you should pay more than $6,000.

Itgb · #6 02-03-2004, 11:19 PM

Quote:

I ran it on www.KBB.com and it spit out around $5,000 for private party sale with 38,000 miles and it excellent condition. No way you should pay more than $6,000.

With such a limited-production car, which no one knows about(especially used car pricing companies), you can't follow their numbers. You have to look at what actual cars sell for on the market. No way in hell will you ever buy a 16V in mint condition, 38k mi. for $5000. Last year someone bought a mint condition 16V with 75k mi. for $9k. That is around what the market value should be if you researched their sales.

Thanks 90free400e. It's a work-in-progress.

super SEC · #7 02-04-2004, 01:24 PM

I searched on-line and found some good examples in the $4,000 to $5,000 range and even a 5 speed manual for $4,800. There were a few examples around $8,000 and but I would think that goes along the lines of a car is worth what someone will pay. The market says it is not worth over around $6,000 but to the right person who knows?

HGV · #8 02-04-2004, 01:36 PM

This cars have a small and strong following. A car that shows up in good shape with 100k miles and all records, with one owner from a state with no rust and a 5 speed with good tires and in stock condition should go for $8k. That is what they go for.

I found one with 22k miles with one owner that is listed for $25k. Now that is wishful thinking.

Henry

super SEC · #9 02-04-2004, 01:41 PM

The people with the strong following should snatch them up because there are plenty available for prices below $6000 and they appear to be in good shape. There are a few 5 speeds available for less than $6000 on www.autotrader.com. Maybe someone should tell them they are not asking enough so they don't bring values down. If you are confident the following is that strong, buy them and flip them for a good profit.

HGV · #10 02-04-2004, 02:12 PM

Super SEC

I have been looking for one of these cars for a while and have been following the market on sites like AUtotrader. You are right that there are cars for $6k most have high mileage and are back east. Not all but most for that price. Some don't mention mileage. THere are 8 listed with less than 130K mileage average price is about $8k. with the high at $10.5 with 91k and the low for $6k with 122k mileage with the car spending time in Colorado. Average price comes out to $8.35k. Cars that are around $6k have 160k+ miles and mostly from the east coast.

The cars you suggested could be flipped are not the ones I am interested in. I would much rather spend on the high side for a car that has all records and in excellent shape. THe difference in a $6k and $8k car is one valve job.

Henry

super SEC · #11 02-04-2004, 03:03 PM

I just did the search and there were only four of the 190E 2.3L cars that were above $8,000 and all the rest were below $7,000.

Here is an exerpt from one of the adds. This one didn't mention the mileage but it may be worth checking-out:
1987 MERCEDES BENZ 190E, 2.3 16 lmtd prdct, 5 spd, blck lthr, prem sound system, new tires, new exhaust, $5,950, 214-673-3475.

Yes, you always want to get the best car you can afford because repairs are not cheap. However, I wouldn't eliminate a higher mileage Mercedes if it were properly maintained. I guess Mercedes autos don't hold value too well in the South East US or maybe there is just more supply. I've seen some very nice low mileage '89-'90 300 CE's in the $5,000 to $8,000 range. I have a good friend looking at one tonight that the owner says is in great shape for $3,500. There are some really nice '91 and later 500 SL's in the teens and even some amazing 600 SL's in the low 20's.

#12 02-05-2004, 11:55 PM

Not being and expert on these cars, all I have to stay is stay away, unless you plan on spend lot$ of money on the thing. I've learned that cars with low miles aren't all they seem to be, I am sure the engine will need some work... I would not pay more than $5,000 for the thing, unless the you get a PPI and it proves otherwise...

yhliem · #13 02-06-2004, 02:50 PM

the 2.3-16 is a specialty car (as are the 300SEL 6.3, 450 SEL 6.9, W124 500E500, C36, C43) These cars (and others like them) are limited production vehicles that are not suject to the indecies for used cars such as KBB. When it comes to so-called specialty cars, KBB and other guides are about as useful for determining the value as firewood is.

That being said, if you are considering one of these cars, your first step is to research the car. and i don't mean finding out the hp and fuel economy figures. you need to know more about the car than the seller does.

the 2.3-16 was developed in 1983 to get mercedes back into racing and to generate excitement about their cars. for about 30 years (since 1955) MB had been out of motorsports and had developed a reputation as a high-end luxury vehicle only.

MB joined up with Cosworth Engineering to develop a base engine that could be competetive in rallying. this engine was to be put in to MB's new compact saloon chassis which had a new and patented 5-link rear suspension which provided unparalleled handling and predictability. the 190 series would be the first production model to use this suspension design.

in order to test the 16V (and perhaps serve notice to the automotive world that MB was back) 3 pre-production models were taken to the Nardo test track in Italy. These cars were basically stock with only external attachements (headlight wipers, side view mirrors) removed, a higher final drive ratio, a slightly deeper front air dam, a marginally lower ride height, and special tires that offered lower rolling resistance being the only things that differed from the final production version.

some 201 hours (or eight days) later, the three 16Vs completed a historic run which saw them breaking 9 class records and 3 absolute world records for time to distance. the 3 World records were for times to 25,000 km, 25,000 miles and 50,000 km at an average speed in excess of 247 km/h.

here is a link.

by the time that the 16V made its debut Audi's quattro was taking the rally world by storm and it was apparent that the new Merc would be uncompetetive in rallying.

Instead, MB entered the 16V in the DTM where the 190 Sport (as it was referred to in Europe) ran with success until 1993. Along the way 2 limited edition high powered Evolution versions were developed and proved to be a handful for the vaunted BMW M3. What made the 190 Sports that much more impressive was that they were passenger cars whose design was adapted for racing, whereas BMW's M3 was a car designed for racing that was later adapted for street use.

in 1988 the 2.3-16's engine was redesigned and became the 2.5-16. some of the internals were changed and improved and hp output went from 185 bhp to 195bhp (205 bhp without catalysts) and MB took over the casting duties of the Cosworth head. perviously Cosworth handled the task of producing the cylinder heads for MB.

The 2.3-16 was only available in North America for the 1986 and 1987 model years. Only about 2000 units were sold in the US over those 2 years and a handful more in canada.

1989 saw the unveiling of the Evolution I, redesigned internals and aerodynamic changes produced a mercedes on steroids. when the original 2.3-16 was unveiled the braking power of the car was revered by the automotive journalists. While the 2.3-16 and 2.5-16 washed off speed effectively, the Evolution I's brakes felt as if a drag 'chute had been deployed. they were THAT good.

1989 190E 2.5-16 Evolution I (street version)

in 1990 Mercedes unveiled the bi-winged Evolution II. Referred to by many as the Batmobile, the EvoII had a rear wing that could make a ferrari F-40 turn green with envy. This car had many changes, the most impressive of which was the engine. redesigned (yet again) the 2.5L naturally aspirated 4 cylinder produced 235 bhp in street trim. fully prepped race versions hit the track with in excess of 370bhp.

1990 190E 2.5-16 Evolution II (street version)

In an attempt to belittle the EvoII a BMW engineer stated that aerodynamics laws must differ between Munich and Stuttgart and that if the wing actually worked, BMW would have to rebuild their own wind tunnel. as it turns out, that's exactly what BMW would do. The radical body kit of the EvoII was purely functional. MB turned to Prof. Richard Eppler, the King of Aerodynamics at Die Universitaet Stuttgart to design the aerodynamic aids.

what was achieved was nothing short of genius: Cd was reduced to an incredible .30 and at the same time, over 50kg of downforce was added over the rear axle alone.

502 examples of the EvoI And 502 examples of the EvoII were sold to the public in order to meet production requirements that would make the car eligible for racing. after being unveiled at the Geneva Motor Show, all 502 EvoIIs were sold within ONE week.

The 2.3-16s which were available for sale in North America were saitized and de-tuned shadows of the original 190 Sport. Putting out a paltry (by comparison) 167 bhp the 16v did not quite live up to its billing on this side of The Pond. Especially since it came fully loaded. With only heated seats and rear headrests having been left off of the standard features list (air con, power windoes and power seats as well as full leather recaro seats were standard fare for this car), the 2.3-16 weighed in at a bulky 3300lbs and cost a pretty penny: over $62,000 Canadian in 1987.

Still, its aggressive styling and race-bred Getrag 5-speed made it a driver's car that, in the hands of a capable driver, could easily outmaneuver more powerful v-8 engined cars on tight tracks with many turns if not on the straight 1/4 mile.

Production upgrades over the 2 years amounted to headlight upgrades and climate control upgrades that applied to all 190-series sedans.

When purchasing a used 16V things to look out for are whether the rear suspension bushings are in need of replacement and whether the timing chain tensioner has been upgraded.

Rear suspension bushings can wear out by 90,000 miles (or sooner) depending on driving style. This is due to the engineering to the 5-link rear suspension. In order to provide the level of handling and predictability that it does, the bushings of the rear control arms work VERY hard. The most common symptom of worn bushings is a tendency for the rear end of the car to wander or steer itself, particularly under acceleration or deceleration. The bushings are not sold seperately and are purchased through the dealership as a complete control arm.

Earlier models had a non-ratcheting timing chain tensioner that would allow a timing chain, when stretched, to rattle dangerously on cold start-up. This resulted in more than a few cars with jumped timing and serious engine work. Ensure that the upgraded tensioner has been installed.

The rear hydropneumatic suspension struts are another area to inspect. failure is usually indicated by a leaky strut or a car that sits ass-low. replacement parts are pricey for this system and many owners have opted to delete the SLS (Self Levelling Suspension) in favor of a more conventional (and cheaper) setup. if this has been done, ensure that it was done properly.

Also be wary of any European grey-market imports. Mercedes-Benz's official policy on grey-market cars is that thye do not exist. Even though you may find the odd dealership that will help you out, some europe only parts are hard to come by, and invariably expensive. additionally, grey market cars which have been "federalized" may have been worked by less than scrupulous people so you never really know what you're getting into.

Watch out for imitation 16Vs. a car can look like a 16v from the outside, but verify that the engine and transmission are intact. the 16V chassis code is 201.034. check the build plate for this number and ensure that the VIN number starts with WDBDA34D6G for 1986 model year vehicles or WDBDA34D6H for 1987.

Modified cars are, of course, a shaky prospect at best. it's always best to get a PPI and have a certified and trustworthy technician check the car out from stem to stern. Even better if you can find one who is experienced with these cars. Because of their rarity, knowledgeable techs are few and far between.

Records are a must. especially those pertaining to factory scheduled service and oil changes. these cars are highly sensitive to poor maintenance. if you have to, pay a premium for a car with full service history and a proven history of regular and frequent oil and filter changes.

the best way to determine price range is to see what is out on the market. these cars are more likely to respond to supply and demand than "regular" production cars. see what the market can bear before taking the plunge.

For more info, go to

www.190revolution.net