560SL New Owner - bunch of questions!

[metavenue]

Hi Guys -

I've recently bought a '88 560SL from a friend of mine and had a bunch of questions for anyone who has got a few minutes. Bit of background first - my friend did a lot of improvements to the car - new fuel pump, new steering box / damper, rebuilt transmission, rear shocks, new front rotors, pad calipers, new muffler, new tires.

I ploughed a few hundred bucks into the car now myself, replacing a tie rod assembly, replacing front shocks, and fixing both upper control arm boots and rear axle boot, and fixing a loose connection between the cat and the exhaust.

The car is running good but I'm now wondering about the following:

1. It seems like it's vibrating, especially when stationary or after starting, more than it should. Not major, but doesn't feel like a car that cost 61K when new! Also doesn't handle potholes or poor roads very well. I've been told that it's might be because of worn out sub-mounts and bushings. How do I know for sure? How much labor in hours does it take a professional to replace those?

2. The underside of the car is pretty dirty and rusty. The rust is mainly on the surface but it's not pretty down there. Does that actually matter? Is it worth getting it clean down there and using some of these underbody products to keep it rust-free like Eastwood or Waxoyl?

3. My mechanic just replaced the boots on the upper ball joints - the ball joints seem to test fine, though the boots were torn. The service manual says you should replace the ball joints whenever the boots get ripped. Sure that's overkill, if the balljoints test OK? Especially given how much upper control arms cost!

4. I'm hoping to swap out the original Becker radio with a Blaupunkt 410 Toronto. How do you know if a new radio is going to fit in? How difficult is installing it?

5. The mechanic said to check engine oil every time I fill up the tank. Does that sound right?

Many thanks in advance. The first question is the really important one!

Cheers,

Jasper

[abiby]

1. They're 24 years old so yeah, if they haven't been replaced, they're due. Check the motor mounts as well. No idea as to shop time.

2. Can't hurt.

3. Seems like overkill to me as well.

4. No idea though removing the old one is easy.

5. That's what all mechanics, manufacturers, etc. recommend. Do I? Hell no, but I did for the first summer I owned my car until I had a feel for its oil consumption and now I check it occassionally along with all the other fluids.

You said nothing about the timing chain. If it hasn't been changed as well as the chain guides, it's due. If a guide breaks and the chain jumps, you basically own a large paperweight.

Enjoy your new ride!

[metavenue]

Hey thanks for the response. Much appreciated...

Some follow-ups:

1. OK, suppose I move forward with getting the subframes and engine mounts replaced to try and smooth out the vibrating and rough ride over rough roads. Are the parts I need the subframe kit (115 330 18 75), engine mount right ( 107 241 22 13) and left (107 241 26 13). Do I need to do the bushings as well? Which ones are most important to swap out?

2. I've been wondering about the Timing chain. I've heard 2 different things a) Replace the timing chain no matter what at 100K miles (I'm at 154K); b) the timing chain thing is overplayed, they last a lot longer than people think & you do get a warning clanging sort of sound before they break. I wish we had an actuary table for this. Do people on this forum know of people who've actually had broken timing chains on the w107 series, or is it sort of an urban legend that they break around 100K etc?

It's not that I don't think it's wise to replace it - it's a question of the $, and trying to assess how risky it is to drive without replacing it. Can the mechanic evaluate it visually and assess its condition?

3. One last thing. I'm getting the sense with this car that it doesn't much like stop and start driving around the city but loves the open road. Perhaps because it's so heavy it likes to keep moving or something. Is this in my head or is this the general vibe about these cars?

Thanks again

[joselu43]

First thing I did when I bought my car was to pull the valve covers and check the guides. Two were broken. How about yours?
As far as the chain, I just replaced it. That improved the timing, gave me more power and the car was not as sluggish. My advice: if the chain is stretched (check the timing marks), replace it.
Lots of info in this site on how to do both jobs if you want to do it yourself.
These are great cars, enjoy yours!

Jl

[Walrus]

Welcome To "This Damned Old Car" - Benzworld.org - Mercedes-Benz Discussion Forum

The Encyclopaedia Germanica Volume 107 (aka EGv107) - Benzworld.org - Mercedes-Benz Discussion Forum

These two links may provide you with hours of "enjoyment"...

[joselu43]

Ah ...., nooo, I do not think the chain wil break. Change it just the same. If it is stretched, you will be driving a different car.

Jl

[rowdie]

google EPC.net. You can look up the correct part numbers. Only works with PC. MAC you are SOL.

The timing chain does not break. Guides/slide rails break. Tensioner fails. Gears wear causing "stretch". And yes people have had a failure causing major damage.
The Truth About Timing Chain Failures? - Benzworld.org - Mercedes-Benz Discussion Forum

Also the flex discs at the front and rear of the drive shaft fail and you don't want to see what happens.

[Walrus]

Originally Posted by metavenue

The car is running good but I'm now wondering about the following:

1. It seems like it's vibrating, especially when stationary or after starting, more than it should. Not major, but doesn't feel like a car that cost 61K when new! Also doesn't handle potholes or poor roads very well. I've been told that it's might be because of worn out sub-mounts and bushings. How do I know for sure? How much labor in hours does it take a professional to replace those?

would have to look it up... give me a few.

2. The underside of the car is pretty dirty and rusty. The rust is mainly on the surface but it's not pretty down there. Does that actually matter?

Yes it matters... A good degreaser, elbow grease, and power wash should help you decide if more is needed.

3. My mechanic just replaced the boots on the upper ball joints - the ball joints seem to test fine, though the boots were torn. The service manual says you should replace the ball joints whenever the boots get ripped. Sure that's overkill, if the balljoints test OK? Especially given how much upper control arms cost!

If joint was tight, I'd not worry too much. UCA are around $400US. LCA balljoints are replaceable item.

4. I'm hoping to swap out the original Becker radio with a Blaupunkt 410 Toronto. How do you know if a new radio is going to fit in? How difficult is installing it?/

Why? Single DIN easy install.

5. The mechanic said to check engine oil every time I fill up the tank. Does that sound right?

Yes, until you establish usage/leakage, then space it out as you see fit.

Many thanks in advance. The first question is the really important one!

Cheers,

Jasper

Congrats...

[Walrus]

Originally Posted by metavenue

Some follow-ups:

1. ... Do I need to do the bushings as well? Which ones are most important to swap out?

Yes... All rubber, if stock, is likely well expired.

2. I've been wondering about the Timing chain. I've heard 2 different things a) Replace the timing chain no matter what at 100K miles (I'm at 154K); b) the timing chain thing is overplayed, they last a lot longer than people think & you do get a warning clanging sort of sound before they break. I wish we had an actuary table for this. Do people on this forum know of people who've actually had broken timing chains on the w107 series, or is it sort of an urban legend that they break around 100K etc?

Yes... Most recently was a 420SL with around 133K miles if I recall correctly. The chain does not fail, but the guides do, and cause chain damage ad infinitum... Definitely NOT an urban legend. Guides AT LEAST at 100K or sooner.

Can the mechanic evaluate it visually and assess its condition?

Stretch can be measured. Guides are another matter CHANGE THEM, if not in the last ten years...

3. One last thing. I'm getting the sense with this car that it doesn't much like stop and start driving around the city but loves the open road. Perhaps because it's so heavy it likes to keep moving or something. Is this in my head or is this the general vibe about these cars?

Thanks again

Its in your head... ITS A DAMN CAR! Use it how you see fit, and enjoy every minute of it.

[Walrus]

Originally Posted by metavenue

How much labor in hours does it take a professional to replace those?

A bunch (I got tired of adding up hours after 20+, from the Mercedes Labor Time "book"...

[nobby]

My SL has 172K miles on it and is vibration free. It is a bit ponderous steering wise but it is a heavy car with old steering technology. No rack and pinion.
After changing virtually every rubber piece on the car and renewing the suspension parts, it handles quite well .

What I am saying is what everyone else already has.

It's a great car, but if it is full of 25 year old parts, it will behave like a 25 year old car.

And the timing chain is not really the issue. It's the old plastic guides that are, again, 25 years old and have been through countless hot and cold cycles.

THAT is the weakest link, so to speak, in the timing chain issue.

Here are some ghastly pictures.

Timing Chain: A Visual Inspection - Benzworld.org - Mercedes-Benz Discussion Forum

[metavenue]

Alright everyone - many thanks again. Plenty to chew on here and think about. I'm learning a lot. This is my exec summary of what you all are saying:

1. Don't mess with the timing chain thing. Get at least the guides replaced. Prioritize this so you're not gambling with your car.

2. Somebody said replace the flex discs at front and rear was also critical. OK, I need a bit of help here. What do they do? & why are these so important?
I learned from reading another forum that a good mechanic can do this in an hour? Sound right? (please send a link if there's a discussion that covers this...)

3. Replace subframe mounts, engine mounts and as many bushings and other rubber things as you can. It will improve the ride. But it's not critical in the way that 1 & 2 are so don't rob a bank to pay for it.

4. Yes to cleaning the underbody.

5. Replace the oil every time you fill up until you know what you're doing

I think that's the important stuff, right?

Thanks again to all - it's a cool and unexpected element to getting this car that you get to join this super-generous community!

[meltedpanda]

MB uses flex disks in place of universal joints, they stress and wear and if they fail your drive shaft wobble through the transmission tunnel , pretty rapidly from what I understand

[rowdie]

Don't know how you could get don't mess with the chain from what has been posted here. You need to determine wear, commonly called stretch and proceed after determining this. Also tensioner and cam oiler plastic fittings should be replaced.

[metavenue]

Sorry - poor word choice. I meant "Don't mess with it" in the sense of "deal with it", don't ignore it