Justify this !

[dkveuro]

".................-- A toddler girl was shot and killed when her intoxicated father used her as a shield during a fiery gunbattle with police following a standoff that lasted three hours, authorities said.

Police Chief William Bratton said yesterday that his officers were well within department policy when they shot carwash owner Jose Pena, 34, on Sunday. Pena also was killed and an officer was shot in the shoulder.

"You aren't going to stand there with somebody shooting at you," Bratton said. "The person responsible for any loss of life ... was the individual who held his child out as a shield and continued to shoot............"

______________________________________________________

Just what exactly is the justification for this infants death ?
This is just one of three or four incedents by the LAPD when I 'Googled' the story....

Are there no sharp shooters or marksman out there anymore....I could remove the ears off a teddy bear at 100 yds with an SLR back in the 60's.

Is it all going horribly wrong or is this just me ?


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[dkveuro]

Bump....


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[Brian Carlton]

When you rely on the news media for the story, it is portrayed in a way to influence your decision on the topic.

Personally, I have no knowledge of the incident, however, I certainly won't rush to judgment in condemning the police officers out of hand.

If the perpetrator was moving and simultaneously firing the weapon, it's not so easy to return fire with a 9mm handgun and be deadly accurate.

It may simply be one of those unfortunate situations where the police were left with no options.

You need more facts to make an informed judgment.

[matt7531]

You got to look at it that way. I mean, what are we arguing here, that some cop wanted to shoot a kid? For goodness sake, these men have families and human feelings. Whatever happened probably was totally out of control for everyone involved, who probably all ended up wishing it had turned out different. God bless these guys, what a burden to carry for the rest of their lives for a few grand a month.

[dkveuro]

First off...I am NOT rushing to judgement ! I take exeption to your implication.

Second...I am asking where the justification of a childs death can be disregarded by Bratton. He seems to think that shooting back is the only option.

Third...I am NOT impuning the police officers on the scene....
Tough call every time and lot's of time to reflect.

Why could not the area have been evacuated and let him shoot up the place until out of ammo'.
Putting yourself in harms way is one thing....shooting back with 9mm hand guns and expecting to hit anything is questionable.

I shoot a lot....9mm mostly..I have 40 years experience ...my target average is good and tight grouped......but this was not a target range....

The commentary by Mr Bratton was cold hearted, if indeed the police did kill the child....I hope it was not a miss placed police round.

Why is it necessary to end the situation right now.....it was over two hours already...what's another few hours or so ?
Did you see the stand off of the guy sitting in the chair threatening to kill his self a few months ago?.....the sharp shooter took out his hand gun from his fingers.....
They could have called in someone with skill to defuse this person.....what this does in the long run is cause the next, and the next, and the next, to be slowly less important.

I can see a clinical disregard for all life emerging from continual shoot downs with disregard for innocent individuals......if not by the perpetrator then by the officials who try to minimize it.

[Brian Carlton]

Originally Posted by dkveuro

First off...I am NOT rushing to judgement ! I take exeption to your implication.

Originally Posted by dkveuro

They could have called in someone with skill to defuse this person.....what this does in the long run is cause the next, and the next, and the next, to be slowly less important.

Originally Posted by dkveuro

I can see a clinical disregard for all life emerging from continual shoot downs with disregard for innocent individuals......if not by the perpetrator then by the officials who try to minimize it.

.................if that is not rushing to judgment...............I'm not sure what is.

Maybe you have more details and facts about the incident than we do.

[boneheaddoctor]

who shot the kid...the father (who was doing something stupid) or the cops who where shooting in disregard of the hostages saftey (also doing something stupid)

Without knowing what happened it seems like it is pretty difficult to infer anything. If the officer is talking to the guy and he starts shooting at him then the end result and the press response seems perfectly reasonable.

[Botnst]

On any given day, in any town in America, there's olenty of stupid for everybody to have a fair share.

Plus a dead little girl.

[A264172]

Originally Posted by dkveuro

"...her intoxicated father used her as a shield ...

That speaks volumes.

[dkveuro]

Originally Posted by A264172

That speaks volumes.

Volumes of what ?

It is not established yet, whom fired the fatal bullet(s) .

I find it difficult to believe that a child used as a shield would not cause the officers on the spot to pull back. I still find the quote from Bratton.....
".......Police Chief William Bratton said yesterday that his officers were well within department policy when they shot carwash owner Jose Pena...."..... to be minimising the death of the kid.

I do not see this happening if a promenent member of society has their kid taken as a shield in the same set of conditions......class does play a role in the administrations of law, as sad as that is.

As to 'rush to judgement'...how long exactly do we wait to say this is a horrible thing to happen, no matter by who's hand. Does Bratton also stand judged as rushing to judgement on the death of this girl by saying the above, or do we leave our feelings about injustice at the door on the way out ?

I have yet to see a post here that condems the killing...apart from BoneHead...now there's a switch.

Are we killing so many people now all around the world , one more or less is justification for indifference....shame on you all if you think that.

[Brian Carlton]

Originally Posted by dkveuro

I have yet to see a post here that condems the killing...apart from BoneHead...now there's a switch.

Maybe you have noticed...............in the past..............Bonehead is fond of rushing to judgment, without a hint of factual data.

Nobody is condemning the killing because nobody has the facts.

[dkveuro]

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

Nobody is condemning the killing because nobody has the facts.

So, does Mr Bratton ?
Using your logic, this makes what he said even worse.


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that "cop" had a split second to make a decision in a very explosive situation.

it's easy for others to judge his actions.

cop is a slang term to me.
I assume you mean a officer of the law

I will bet you a $100.00 bill that he DID NOT intend to shoot that child.
innocent bystanders probably factored into his decision.

the media portrays L.A. "cops" as animals.

an armed suspect using a child as a shield......
what would people think if the "cop" has pulled back and the perp had
injured and/or killed others??? then people would probably be saying that he should have been taken down at any price.

these L.A. "cops" have to deal with scum of the earth everyday.
nobody ever says thanks.

btw I don't live on the West coast, so perhaps I am being ignorant....

[cmac2012]

You can't help but be shocked by this. I heard on the news today that one of the officers had been shot in the shoulder and was down; they were trying to get him out of the way to safety, and the guy came out shooting wildly with the girl in front of him.

I was thinking a sharpshooter with a rifle would have been a great way to re-orient his cranial cavity but it's easy for me to judge sitting here. It's a tough one. Sometime the cops are too quick to shoot, but how many of us would put his life on the line to exercise some patience when there's a guy coming at you shooting wildly.

On some level, there's something horribly Darwinian about this. This man was an organism who did not behave with the proper intelligence to insure that his genes would live beyond him.

Lousy deal in several different ways at once. The guy looked pretty crude in the picture I saw of him -- no surprise there.