Basic Math Concepts - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

kerry · #46 01-07-2007, 10:22 PM

I was playing the role of 'guy who doesn't teach Math' to see if I concurred that one or more of the candidates could explain an idea to the non-expert.
Turns out that on one of those committees, the candidate who stood out beyond all others, was a undergraduate Philosophy major who got a graduate degree in Math to make some money. He's become one of my best friends. He'd far prefer to discuss Moore's (unconvincing) argument than solve a Calculus problem.

As an aside, the English dept at our school came up with a great interview question that gives interesting insights into the candidates. "What famous historical figure (or 3 historical figures) would you invite to dinner and why? What would you serve?

The last time I was on a search committee (for an English professor) I talked them into including a famous scientist in the list. Believe it or not, there was a person with a graduate degree in English who could NOT name a famous scientist. This is an example of the kind of problem with which Bot is concerned.

Kuan · #47 01-07-2007, 10:30 PM

I've only been on one search commitee, and it was probably more fun than any you've been on. My wife and I were on the commitee to hire a resident oenologist at the University of Illinois. Amazingly enough, there were only four candidates so we "interviewed" all four. Although the school had a strict no alcohol policy at official University events, we managed to break that rule all four times.

Botnst · #48 01-07-2007, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry edwards

I'm certainly not arguing that Universities should become job training centers, nor am I arguing that Math is not one of the greatest accomplishments of the human intellect or that Math is not central to almost all of modern technology.

I'm just saying there is something different about Math. We never hear of Sociology phobia or Welding phobia or History phobia, but we all know of Math phobia. Ask anyone who teaches Math at the kind of level we are talking about.

Take Art as a counter example. Most universities require some kind of exposure to Art in their core curriculum. However, since artistic talent is something that is often inborn, we don't require students to produce good paintings or sculpture, we allow them to study the history of Art instead of doing Art. We don't do this in Math. We don't allow students to study the history of Math (indeed such courses are extremely rare at the undergraduate level). We make them DO Math. Is this the equivalent of requiring students to DO sculpture or painting or play an instrument, rather than learning about these things?

Should we require a History of Math course as the logical equivalent of Art History? Maybe we could get people to go to Math museums the same way we get people to go to Art museums and get rid of the phobia at the same time?

That's a reasonable argument and I am not sure that it has a global answer.

The reason that I defend calculus is precisely in-line with Kuan's original query -- to analytically understand rates one must understand the calculus (limits, derivatives, integrals, etc). I don't think one needs to be an accomplished analyst but the insight gained from learning and demonstrating the concepts is so fundamentally illuminating to every aspect of the physical sciences and engineering (and increasingly, the biological sciences) that I find it hard to conceive of a universally educated person NOT having been exposed to it. Golly, I left out mathematics.

The argument about the humanities is a good one: Why should a brilliant expert in Assyrian art be required to take the calculus? He should not, unless he wants to claim a university education. If all he wants is mastery of Assyrian art then let him have a degree from an entity that does not claim educational universality as it's accomplishment.

B

t walgamuth · #49 01-07-2007, 10:40 PM

when i was in architecture school we had to take one quarter of calculus.

i just didn't get it at all. it is the only math class ever that i got less than a b in. i am not sure but it is possible i never got less than an a in other math courses. and i got all a's in my structures as well i am pretty sure.

the calculus was totally worthless. i have never needed it ever before or since.

and it is no longer required for the architecture degree.

tom w

Kuan · #50 01-07-2007, 10:52 PM

Architecture is one of those wonderful professions which so seamlessly blends art and science. Although it seems to me like a lot more science at times, I bet it's more often than not an art, a black art so to speak.

Botnst · #51 01-07-2007, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

when i was in architecture school we had to take one quarter of calculus.

i just didn't get it at all. it is the only math class ever that i got less than a b in. i am not sure but it is possible i never got less than an a in other math courses. and i got all a's in my structures as well i am pretty sure.

the calculus was totally worthless. i have never needed it ever before or since.

and it is no longer required for the architecture degree.

tom w

That's fine. AIA probably requires hiring an engineer under some circumstances, but that's well out of my realm (by golly, I hope they do!).

Just as I think an educated man (or a man who claims a university education) should know something of the Peloponnesian War, Marxism, and the Renaissance, I think he should know who Christopher Wren and Frank Lloyd Wright were, why Mozart was a genius of staggering immensity, and how Galileo got in trouble, and why Isaac Newton was important.

Nearly everything we have enjoy the industrial age is directly traceable to Newton's physical insights, for which he developed the calculus to fully describe. He is the most important man in history since Jesus Christ. One cannot deeply appreciate the changes Newton originated in how we see man and the universe, without the calculus--which he invented (or discovered, if you will).

aklim · #52 01-07-2007, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

For instance, I was in college for a BA in Music Performance. To require me to take advanced calculus, trigonometry, and other such nonsense (my university didn't, fortunately) would have been a big waste of time, money, and resources. COMPLETELY unrelated and not useful to my chosen field. I didn't need it then, and I don't need it now.

Mike

I was forced to do soci, psych and other artistic stuff that I had, have and probably will have, absolutely no interest in or use. Wish I could have dumped them too.

aklim · #53 01-07-2007, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry edwards

I'm just saying there is something different about Math. We never hear of Sociology phobia or Welding phobia or History phobia, but we all know of Math phobia. Ask anyone who teaches Math at the kind of level we are talking about.

Take Art as a counter example. Most universities require some kind of exposure to Art in their core curriculum. However, since artistic talent is something that is often inborn, we don't require students to produce good paintings or sculpture, we allow them to study the history of Art instead of doing Art. We don't do this in Math. We don't allow students to study the history of Math (indeed such courses are extremely rare at the undergraduate level). We make them DO Math. Is this the equivalent of requiring students to DO sculpture or painting or play an instrument, rather than learning about these things?

When I was in grade skook, I conned a mindfuk into claiming I had an Art phobia since I wanted to concentrate more in the sciences. Does that count towards your list of phobias?

Kuan · #54 01-07-2007, 11:55 PM

What is up with you folks thinking that you should only do things that you like or want to do? Don't you not think that you're what you are because of where you've been? Is your happiness diminished because someone made you take Math 102 as a freshman?

I can't point to many specifics, but I truly believe what I am today is the net result of the things I've done, good or bad, happy or sad. One would say d'uh of course, but I actually believe that this is the best of all possible outcomes despite my bad and painful undertakings. It's a very "here and now" outlook, for lack of a better phrase.

t walgamuth · #55 01-07-2007, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuan

Architecture is one of those wonderful professions which so seamlessly blends art and science. Although it seems to me like a lot more science at times, I bet it's more often than not an art, a black art so to speak.

it is truly a blend of art and function. trying to keep them balanced is the trick. i took one of those tests which measure right brain and left brain dominance. i was remarkably balanced (slightly tilted toward the artistic). i once read that being too balanced was bad for your mental health (that could explain some things).

hell i am even ambidextrious (sp?). i can write pretty well with my left and can drive nails left handed. it is handy when working on cars because sometimes you need to start a nut and cannot reach it with the right hand.

AIA being a professional organization does not require anything except paying your dues. afaik. it is expected that if you need professional engineering assistance you will be wise enough to obtain it. i seldom need it for my relatively small projects but on occasion i do.

tom w

Kuan · #56 01-08-2007, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

hell i am even ambidextrious (sp?). i can write pretty well with my left and can drive nails left handed. it is handy when working on cars because sometimes you need to start a nut and cannot reach it with the right hand.

Good now fix my darn roof. It's frozen over now so no leaks for the last few days.

aklim · #57 01-08-2007, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuan

Is your happiness diminished because someone made you take Math 102 as a freshman?

Replace Math 102 with any of the other classes I consider fluff (soci, psych, art, music, etc, etc) and my answer would be "yes".

Kuan · #58 01-08-2007, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Replace Math 102 with any of the other classes I consider fluff (soci, psych, art, music, etc, etc) and my answer would be "yes".

So right now you're saying you could be happier. You cannot get over it?

Botnst · #59 01-08-2007, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuan

What is up with you folks thinking that you should only do things that you like or want to do? Don't you not think that you're what you are because of where you've been? Is your happiness diminished because someone made you take Math 102 as a freshman?

I can't point to many specifics, but I truly believe what I am today is the net result of the things I've done, good or bad, happy or sad. One would say d'uh of course, but I actually believe that this is the best of all possible outcomes despite my bad and painful undertakings. It's a very "here and now" outlook, for lack of a better phrase.

We got off-track from your original post and are mucking-around going nowhere in particular.

I don't think one could avoid being the sum of one's history.

B

Kuan · #60 01-08-2007, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

I don't think one could avoid being the sum of one's history.

B

Funny. Yes, we're a sum of a series

(of events)

Finite of course.

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