I was teaching an Ethics class today and a group of conservative students were strongly arguing the following position on abortion:

A woman with a known medical condition which will cause her death if she gets pregnant, is raped and becomes pregnant. It is morally impermissible for her to get an abortion, even if it means she will die, because abortion is always wrong.

Has anyone else heard anyone argue this position on abortion? It seems absurd because of the idea that self-defense would permit abortion in these circumstances even for the most right wing thinkers I have ever come across before today.

Did I just run into a strange anomaly or has there been a much further move to the right on the question of abortion of which I am unaware? What's next, imprison the woman until she gives birth then execute her for having illicit sex?

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Funny stuff. They get these ideas locked in and defend them to the death, no matter the argument. Create a new belief to justify the notion that abortion is bad. They don't really subscribe to it, everyones just FOS. Kids are pampered and caged, no concept of reality. Then they turn into ignorant, naive adults. So they have neither experience nor guidance. Weird, like the world is flat sort of thing going on.

That's as bad as stoning her to death. Different method, same result.

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If you question the anti-abortion people, and ask them what their reason for being that way is, they usually say something to the effect "every life is sacred". Fine. Then ask them if an abortion is okay in cases of rape or incest. Most (not all) will say yes. Ditto for health reasons.

I can respect (but not agree with) the ones that say under no circumstances should it be allowed. At least they are sticking to their guns. The others have just drawn their line slightly different than mine.

I know a lot of guys who claim an abortion should never occur, but knowing these guys, if their teenage daughter was raped, they would be the first ones at the clinic....

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I don't know if there's been a shift further to the right among the right wing of the Republican Party, but I wouldn't be surprised. The same is true of the left, though. Nearly every democrat in congress voted against the recent bill that would've banned partial birth abortions.

I do remember one of my professors in college who was a rabbi told us that in the Hebrew Bible, maybe the Torah (I don't remember), the life of the mother takes precedence over nascent life, making it permissible to abort the fetus to protect the life of the mother.

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Paul S.

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Under the scenario that Kerry outlined in the OP, aborting the fetus would be in keeping with the notion that every life is sacred. The woman's parents and other loved ones would not respond well to the notion that this woman, in whom they have invested much time, effort, and emotional energy, is worth less than the fetus spawned by a rapist, a fetus that would not survive its mother's death to boot.

Fanatics such as those he spoke of are hard to take.

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Exactly right, IMHO.

But as CMAC pointed out, they're not sticking to their guns if their view on abortion is based on the idea that every life is sacred. They're only sticking to their guns if they have an arbitrary absolute rule that all abortions are wrong. If their view is based on the sanctity of life, the mother's innocent life should be the equivalent of the fetus's innocent life and at best there is no reason to prefer the life of either one and it's easily argued that the mother's life is to be preferred because death is being caused by the injustice of rape.

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I agree with all of that, except the last part. If the rape creates a situation where one or the other is going to die, then whichever way you go the rape caused the death of an innocent person.

I think the guns they are sticking to is the hard core religious propaganda I do remember this topic at many Young Republican meetings and even at a young age I was the most center on the issue, today I see that many of the hard core no abortion in any case people have moved closer to my position. When we are young thinks are black and white and grey comes with age, I think this is why we have a minimum age to be President. I will let it be known that I am firmly against abortion but in cases when the mothers life is in danger or other circumstances I am OK.

I guess one thing that you noticed is that the perception that right wingers are the ones that suppress other peoples thoughts is incorrect, I had an almost literal hatred of Pseudo hippies in college because of this exact same issue. I got out of the military for school and went back in for Desert Storm. While attending classes anti-war students challenged me whenever they could in classes that allowed open conjecture. Usually the prof was spear heading the hippie assault but I stuck to my guns and found that if I moved in any direction they would pounce on me for being inconsistent. I got laid all the time as a result the chic's really dug my courage even the hippie chic's.

That's the point the rabbi was making to the class I had in college. For the Jew, the answer is easy: The life of the mother is more important than nascent life.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

You don't have to be far left to have been against that bill. It was prohibiting a particular, and very seldom used medical procedure. The name "partial birth" was tacked onto it to make it sound particularly heinous, but it's no worse than other late-term procedures.

The main reasons to be against that bill were: it contained no exception for the health or even life of the mother; it takes the decision of the particular method out of the hands of the mother and her doctor; it is a very rare procedure, only used when other methods are inappropriate.

That ban will not prevent a single abortion.

Reminds me of the saying;

"Too many christians, not enough lions.."


If a woman who is in this situation, were to make the call for herself, not some ********* religious right pricks, and she decided to have the child & know she would certainly die, she woud be committing herself to die, and would also be committing a sin.

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Seems like if babies are valued so much then they would want the mother to live instead, since they are able to produce more babies instead of dying.
Secondly, why are new lives so valued? This planet is overpopulated as it is.

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