Paris Hilton released!!! (Justice or Just us?) - Page 16 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #**226** 06-14-2007, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

Obviously not immoral in the aklim book of conduct.

It may, however, be illegal as in bribery.

Proceed at your own risk.

OK. Now you have me confused. You seem to say it is immoral. Therefore, I extrapolate that you would consider it immoral that say my company helps certain congress people get elected and they show their gratitude by making my job easier for say an Alaska drilling project. Now, a few weeks ago, we were talking about using getting sherriffs elected and using that influence to advance certain causes but you seemed fine with that. If I am reading it right, you seemed to give the old "nod and a wink" to John Doe/Narwhal or whomever it is. So, that begs the question "Is it immoral to buy influence to advance a cause?"

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?p=1505462#post1505462

In particular posts 26 (Yours), 45 (JDs), 49 (yours) especially the last line.

In those posts, he practically brags about how he gets influence and uses it to advance his agendas. IMO, you seemed to be fine with it there. Now, PH probably gave Baca's campaign a few bucks for a donation and got him to spring her. Suddenly that is immoral? I don't follow. Either it is immoral for you, me or anyone to buy influence and use it to advance our agendas or it isn't. If it isn't, why complain about immorality? If it is, aren't we the pot and kettle here?

BENZ-LGB · #**227** 06-14-2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

OK. Now you have me confused. You seem to say it is immoral. Therefore, I extrapolate that you would consider it immoral that say my company helps certain congress people get elected and they show their gratitude by making my job easier for say an Alaska drilling project. Now, a few weeks ago, we were talking about using getting sherriffs elected and using that influence to advance certain causes but you seemed fine with that. If I am reading it right, you seemed to give the old "nod and a wink" to John Doe/Narwhal or whomever it is. So, that begs the question "Is it immoral to buy influence to advance a cause?"

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?p=1505462#post1505462

In particular posts 26 (Yours), 45 (JDs), 49 (yours) especially the last line.

In those posts, he practically brags about how he gets influence and uses it to advance his agendas. IMO, you seemed to be fine with it there. Now, PH probably gave Baca's campaign a few bucks for a donation and got him to spring her. Suddenly that is immoral? I don't follow. Either it is immoral for you, me or anyone to buy influence and use it to advance our agendas or it isn't. If it isn't, why complain about immorality? If it is, aren't we the pot and kettle here?

Bribing a public official in order to obtain a benefit is illegal.

Bribery is generally defines as follows:

Bribery is a crime implying a sum or gift given alters the behavior of the person in ways not consistent with the duties of that person. It is defined by Black's Law Dictionary as the offering, giving, receiving, or soliciting of any item of value to influence the actions as an official or other person in discharge of a public or legal duty. The bribe is the gift bestowed to influence the receiver's conduct. It may be any money, good, right in action, property, preferment, privilege, emolument, object of value, advantage, or any promise or undertaking to induce or influence the action, vote, or influence of a person in an official or public capacity.

It is a form of political corruption and is generally considered unethical. In most jurisdictions it is illegal, or at least cause for sanctions from one's employer or professional organization.

Bribery is one of the approximately 35 (I can't remember the number righ toff the top of my head) that may result in an indictment pursuant to the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO).

So clearly, bribery is illegal.

It is perfectly legal to donate to political campaigns. It is also perfectly legal to become active in the community (as JD and I suggested) in order to gain a degree of influence. It is called developing goodwill.

If a judge is more easily persuaded by my arguments because they are: (a) valid and (b) because as a leader in my community he respects my opinion, that's OK.

If the same judge were to rule in my client's favor solely because I contributed to the judge's campaign (or if the judge fixes my tickets for the same reason) then that is potentially bribery and may be prosecuted as such.

As to whether bribery and influence buying are also immoral I leave that up to your own personal judgment. Since your moral system seems to be quite different than mine, I doubt that we will ever see eye to eye on this (or most) other issues. Morality is a private issue. Laws are a public concern. That's where I draw the line.

I hope this clears any misunderstandings, misconceptions, rumors or other false impressions.

aklim · #**228** 06-14-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

So clearly, bribery is illegal.

It is perfectly legal to donate to political campaigns. It is also perfectly legal to become active in the community (as JD and I suggested) in order to gain a degree of influence. It is called developing goodwill.

OK. That we agree on.

Now, what if PH had developed this "goodwill" and used that goodwill to spring herself? Granted she probably didn't get active in the community but say she did contribute to certain campaigns and/or will to a certain Sheriff and somehow she was sprung from jail. Isn't that the same parallel as what you are saying about gaining a certain degree of influence via donations and/or community services? She got sprung because of the "goodwill" she spread around. JD gets his warrants served or whatever it is called, that Citizen Joe wouldn't get because he didn't gather enough "goodwill". Somehow I see them as similar issues. IMO, either way, it is still peddling influence to advance one's agenda. In the case of PH, it was for a "get out of jail free" card. In the case of JD, it is to get the local cops to take him and his complaint seriously whereas Citizen Joe would be dismissed. Either way, to me, it is peddling influence. Just as if my company were to donate to Senator Joe's campaign and said senator somehow votes in favor of my proposal. All I am saying is that either all cases are immoral or none of them are.

BENZ-LGB · #**229** 06-14-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

OK. That we agree on.

Now, what if PH had developed this "goodwill" and used that goodwill to spring herself? Granted she probably didn't get active in the community but say she did contribute to certain campaigns and/or will to a certain Sheriff and somehow she was sprung from jail. Isn't that the same parallel as what you are saying about gaining a certain degree of influence via donations and/or community services? She got sprung because of the "goodwill" she spread around. JD gets his warrants served or whatever it is called, that Citizen Joe wouldn't get because he didn't gather enough "goodwill". Somehow I see them as similar issues. IMO, either way, it is still peddling influence to advance one's agenda. In the case of PH, it was for a "get out of jail free" card. In the case of JD, it is to get the local cops to take him and his complaint seriously whereas Citizen Joe would be dismissed. Either way, to me, it is peddling influence. Just as if my company were to donate to Senator Joe's campaign and said senator somehow votes in favor of my proposal. All I am saying is that either all cases are immoral or none of them are.

OK, try to follow me on this.

If Sheriff Baca did something for PH that he would not have (or could not have) otherwise done for a similarly situated inmate AND if the only reason he did it for PH was because she or her family paid him money (or PH or her family gave Baca or his family a BJ) then it is illegal.

Uder the terms of an agreement with the LA D.A., the Sheriff may "early release" inmates. But there is a criteria to be followed. If Baca did not follow the criteria and if inmates who were ahead of PH were not released in order to make room for PH AND if this was the result of money (or favors) granted by the Hilton family to Baca, then it is bribery.

BTW, I am done with this. PH is soooooooo 5 minutes ago.

Time to move on!

aklim · #**230** 06-14-2007, 07:29 PM

The way I see it, if giving the official's re-election campaign money, volunteering for his campaign, etc, etc, gets you traction that you wouldn't have got otherwise, it is LEGAL. However, when questioning the morality of the situation, it is immoral. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is moral. When faced with such an issue, I have 2 options. I can live with it or I can not do it. In China you bribe or life is more difficult. Was it immoral? You bet. Can I live with it? You bet. Yes, I do a lot of immoral but legal things but I can live with them.

As far as this situation goes, I am sure that somehow, Baca is benefiting from it by giving PH an early release. Maybe her family gave Baca a donation for his election campaign. While that was legal, IMO, it was done to gain traction where they wouldn't have gotten and thus immoral. I gain traction by goodwill gestures myself. For instance, I did favors for my friends. Surprisingly, when I go visit them, I get employee pricing when I buy their stuff too. Did I bribe them with cash? No. However, I paid them in a different coin. Immoral? Yes. Can I live with it? Absolutely.