From what I can gather, the US troops to whom the so called terrorists were turned over to for ransom rarely had any language skills, they had virtually no way of determining if this guy was indeed an enemy combatant. I'm guessing they did know he looked Arabic or at least Islamic. :rolleyes:

"Holy schmeckel Ahmed! The Americans will give us $4,000 US for that wanker who wants to marry your sister!"

:confused: Really? A whole bunch of really smart, honest Americans worked their butts off to make sure a difficult trial was conducted in an above-board manner, thereby upholding the very best traditions of our Constitution and enhancing our reputation around the world, but aklim is unimpressed. Boy, tough crowd.

Everything is an allegation, including so called history which always belongs to the victors.

It was in Pakistan's interest to turn over tribal from Baluchistaan and other bordering regions as terrorists to the US, that way it protected its own ass from separatists who are waging a war against Pakistan government for autonomy.

.

This is what I get from John Doe in a private message...
after I ask him to stop the personal attacks.

....

"Hey Pussy. Why don't you post my reply on the public forum. Pussy."

....

RichC
:jester:
.

.

Hope, a priceless commodity.

I really was beginning to lose hope in this country.
Not in the people,or the idea of democracy.
Or even what America stands for.

I was losing hope because we were regressing, de-evolving.
For years now we have been sliding backwards into
the dark hole that we have slowly wrenched ourselves
out of.

Going backward with a gleeful grin, and a stupid laugh.
One needs only to look at the presidents face while talking
in public to know what I am getting at.

But the supreme courts decision to return the habeas rights to
the people being held in military prisons has shown me that
there is still hope for America, and all of us.

You can only lie to us for so long.
You can only cheat us for so long.
You can only steal from us for so long.

And then you better watch out.

We will unite into a common voice.
We will become stronger together.
We will overcome any burden.

We will get back what we have lost.
We will hold tight to the things that have made this country great.

We will have life, liberty, and justice, for each and every one of us !!

...

Thank you
RichC
:jester:
.

I don't think the world cared, do you? Even Shakespeare realized that "The Evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred in the bones.". Did that help a whit in the fight with the terrorists? Nope. What impresses me? Results. Concrete, quantifiable results.

Lmao, Go John Go!

How do you know this?Which is what I thought Judge Brinkema achieved in the Moussaoui case. I am sure that she will be sorry to learn that you think she was wasting her time.

.

What, are you 12 years old ?

Grow up !

.

Don't bother: it's the same guy that recently whined about 'immature comments' on this board...:laugh:

.

I remember that post.

:rolleyes:

Talk about the pot calling the kettle a secret Muslim...

.

What did you see that convinced you that it wasn't "business as usual"?

What results did it achieve? Did some terrorists decide to change sides because they saw the fairness? Did OBL decide to end the fight? What concrete quantifiable results did it gain?

But you didn't remember my plane tickets to Texas so I can tell you in the face what I think? The ones you said you would give me?

The worthless sack of ****'s still alive. Of course that's not Brinkma's fault and she was not wasting her time within the context of a civil trial. In fact in this instance I'd directly blame Bush as he's the idiot who decided to go thru the farce of a civil trial in the first place instead of summarily executing the little bastard.

- Peter.

pj, if you like summary executions, may I suggest perhaps moving to China or North Korea as those places would obviously be more to your liking. FYI, death is exactly what Moussaoui wanted. Do you like to please terrorists? It appears you do.

Who knows, maybe. More importantly, it means more protection from unfair justice for the rest of us.

Nicely said, and I feel the same way. I don't know why so many people want to bastardize what this country stands for.

And maybe if pigs had wings, they'd fly. I'm not holding my breath waiting though. Hell, he wasn't even repentant at the end of it when he said "America, you lost... I won.". If that achieved anything, I haven't seen it.

How so? ZM is a French citizen not a US citizen.

Meanwhile...
Pretty much the same thing is happening here in at least one school
in VA. Anybody care as much about this?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25106145/

But it is a religion of peace, didn't you know? YOU must have misinterpreted it.

Its a religion of blowing people into pieces, is that what you meant?

Just repeating what they seem to claim. That islam is a religion of peace.

.

Top 10 terrorists

SNL style...

http://www.ugoto.com/video_snl_skit_top_10_terrorists_robert_de_niro.html

RichC
:jester:

.

Well we know that prisoner mistreatment breeds more terrorism, so if fair trials can prevent that that's accomplishing something.

Breaking news: Not everyone living in the US is a US citizen. Besides who's to say the government can't take your citizenship away, they certainly can.

It matters only if they were NOT terrorists to begin with. And yes, if fair trials can prevent that, it has accomplished something. Can it? I doubt it. Remember, during the Afghan war, OBL was our best friend and gladly took our money, weapons and intelligence. Soon as the wind blew the other way, well..... You do realize that any good you do today doesn't necessarily mean credit for tomorrow, don't you?

Well, if you put it that way, who's to say they cannot send snipers to take me out? Who's to say they cannot send a hit squad to make it look like an accident? We are NOT talking about someone who is a citizen but was stripped of citizenship so as to make incarceration easy. We are talking about a non-citizen who is trying to kill us.

I'm not sure what you mean by "business as usual". All I know is that Judge Brinkema and Moussaoui's court-appointed lawyers did a great job of giving him a fair trial despite all his disruptive efforts.I think you are asking a little too much. Why won't you give credit where it is due?

.

Can anyone explain why they think the judicial system is so broken
that it cannot handle these trials ?

What is wrong, why don't you think it will work ?

.
RichC
:jester:
.

I said that it didn't help in the fight with terrorists and you asked how I knew this. So I asked how you knew it changed the terrorist mindset instead of it being "business as usual" in the "I hate USA world". IOW, what good did it do? since I didn't see it. Maybe you know how it improved things and made us more likable but I didn't see it. Maybe you did.

What credit do you think it is due? That it shows the world that we treat people fairly? Yes, it did. Did that change things? No. Again, I am interested in quantifiable results. Now if it can make people decide not to sign up for terror campaigns, I'm all for it. However, I would like to see any claim substantiated. If you are talking about some warm fuzzy "Dr Feelgood" result, I suppose.

What have they done to deserve anything good? How fair have they been with us, as far as it goes?

You mean like the following?http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/17/mora-abu-ghraib-and-guantanamo-are-first-and-second-identifiable-causes-of-us-combat-deaths-in-iraq/

What is the difference between thinkprogress.org opinions, Mora's and your's? How are their opinions any more credible than your's?

Now, if you had even a few people who could come forward and say that they were considering joining Al Qaeda until they saw that, it would be convincing.

The article I quoted didn't include any opinions from thinkprogress.org.

One reason that Mora's opinions might have credibility is that he has actual experience in the field. That doesn't make his opinions the final say on anything, but aren't they worth considering?

More to the point, though, is that Mora's focus was not on his own opinions, although he did touch on at least one opinion of his own. His focus was on the views expressed by serving flag-rank officers who maintain that abuses committed in the name of the United States at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo have resulted in U.S. combat deaths. Are their views to be ignored? Are their views inferior to Justice Scalia's?

Like I said, their views are about as valuable as yours and Justice Scalia's or even mine. However, if they had something concrete, it would be more than a viewpoint. If they could point to something that we cannot argue with, that would be something. If it could even turn a few recruits and we have some sort of verification of it, that would be something we could not argue with.

I disagree. Not all views are equally valuable. I'd trust the view of someone from the field more than the view of someone who likes to argue on a message board.

Fair enough. Why don't you tell me what he bases his view on? What data does he have to support it?

What about those people on the field who DO believe in it? Do their views count? How about those who are in the field doing it? What if we actually had some people who were trying to extract info and can tell you that they got info? Would their views count even more since they are actually working with these people and not in the rear with the gear?

Of course their views count. You are the only one around here questioning whether other peoples' views count.

I am not saying that we should discount one view or another. I am saying that before we accept their view as the only truth, we should see hard data. Otherwise, it is just an opinion. That is why I am asking what they base their view on. Now, if you can say that we have done this study or something, well, that is a different story. What makes this guy's view so valuable over say the person actually working with the detainee? Without hard data, what makes it more than an opinion

Who suggested that anyone's views should be accepted as the only truth?How would anyone collect hard data on this sort of thing? If you wait for hard data before taking any action against our enemies, then we will get nothing done. There has to be some exercise of judgment. In my judgment, Bush's scorched earth tactics have done a lot of harm.

Report the whole story Rich--that was my reply after you threatened to whine to a moderator. Its my standard response to those who talk tough but can't handle their own problems.

I'm as inclined as the next guy to treat these suspected terrorists the way the Bush administration has. On the other hand, the rule of law is what sets us apart from our enemies. If we resort to the same stuff they do, we're no better than they are.

But as I have often asked, what does this "better" get us?

And as I have often stated, it gives us protection from an abusive government and helps reduce the flames that fuel terrorist recruitment.

If the government is doing something abusive towards us, we need to stop it and fast. OTOH, if they are doing something to someone we don't like and doesn't like us, why waste our time? If you are hitting my kid, sure I should stop you. But if you are beating the crap out of Bob, whom I don't get along with, I might even lend you a hand or foot. Here is what you are asking me to do. You want me to stop you from stomping Bob's guts all the way to China. Well, Bob and I don't get along. He has tried to harm me. Oh wait, because I am fearful that you will turn to me next, I should stop you hurting Bob?

Has anyone proved that yet or is it just a guess? As I have asked, what is infinity plus one? All it does is give them one excuse less. Will it matter? They will always find another one. So yes, in THEORY, it would as long as you ignore the fact that those who are even swayed by recruiters already hate us and that the recruiters will find other excuses.

Remember the link I posted about the innocent German citizen (brown skinned of course) who was kidnapped by the CIA, tortured and then released after months? Without fair trials and a complete ban on torture, none of us have protection from an abusive government. You think your naturalized citizenship offers you protection? Think again. You can be stripped of it. Aren't you dark-skinned? Even more reason for you to worry.

It's based on solid evidence. I thought someone provided examples of it a few pages back. As far as excuses go, I think you'll be the first to come up with another one.

I am dark and I worry, I am questioned extensively at the airport on my return from India if my trip frequency is more than twice a year.

Oh God! I'd better help these poor people or I will be next. :eek: NOT! Next you will be telling me that if I am not blond hair and blue eyed, I am going to be in trouble. Not sure who you are referring to but I choose NOT to engage in such activities and associate with ANYONE that I suspect is involved in such activities so I will sleep easier. Again, if you want to draft a law that protects citizens from such action, fine. Is that what you are talking about?

Lets see it. Lets see some concrete evidence of "when I do this, that happens and when I don't it gets better." Something concrete and quantifiable would be great.

.

:rolleyes:

RichC
:jester:
.

IBTL that is surely coming.

Once you let the government toss out the Constitution, good f'ing luck trying to stop them when they turn their attention to you.
'As long as it's them and not me' is how you get dictators.