I think it is like drugs and alcohol. Both of which can be bad or good depending on what a person is using them for. Perhaps drugs and alcohol are preferable to religion in some instances and in other instances, religion is preferable to them. For instance, meditation or speaking in tongues typically do not cost anything yet a person has to purchase drugs and alcohol, so for the poor religion is better. And yes, it can oppress.

What are you looking to prove Matt? His existence? If there is any God?

Unfortunately there is no proof that can be handed to you that unequivocally proves the existence of a creator. Except creation.

Can you afford to deny his existence?

There are many things that cannot be seen and we accept they exist.

Your conscience is your guide and you have to accept what following your conscience brings you.

We all believe what we choose to believe...that is freedom of choice.


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So religion is the poor man's drugs and alcohol? :D Or maybe it is for some cheap guy who doesn't want to spend the money on dope and booze? :D

So one is to buy it wholesale?

How does creation prove anything?

So now it comes down to hedging bets? Forced into a way of thinking because you are afraid to be wrong?

Please elaborate on what you are speaking of.

But just because we chose to believe it doesn't make it right. People chose to believe the universally held "fact" that the sun orbited the earth. Didn't do too well on that one. What about the "flat earth theory"? Didn't work out either.

Both are true and neither of which are slams on religion.

It is not possible to choose to believe. Either you believe or you do not, and it is not a conscience choice.

I cannot afford to deny my beliefs, as to do so would be hypocrisy. Is this what you want?

Here's a simple test: If I said I were a god, the FIRST thing you and all people would ask of me is to PROVE it to them. This is a REASONABLE request. If I said I was ABOVE proving things to anybody. It would mean that I was trying to perpetrate a hoax. If indeed I was a god, I would have nothing to lose by proving myself and everything to gain, by being honest and forthright.

With over five thousand separate religions on Earth and over a thousand different gods servicing those religions, I have yet to see any true "miracles" by any of these gods in my lifetime so far. I'm not holding my breath...:rolleyes:

What if God didn't want to prove himself so as to prevent fanatical believers from being so swept up in his majesty that they would go so far as killing other people in an attempt to force other people to believe in what they believe in? :)

Which god would you be talking about? Does it matter? Which religion? Who cares?

Anyone can claim anything, if no one can prove anything. Right?

WRT religion as a mechanism of social control, this is not accurate. The suggestion would be that people that sat down to write the texts had in mind a goal of social control. Can anyone show proof of this? What has happened is that religion has been harnessed used as tool for social control, but i don't think that was the original intent.

WRT Jesus as Messiah, it could just as easily be said that it was portrayed as inspiring hope to help endure the brutality of life..... nothing political at all…

I agree that all religion serves to try and answer metaphysical questions that have probably existed since the outset of mankind

My view is not that people consciously do this. There is no need for conscious activity in order to explain the function of a phenomena. Your heart functions to pump blood but you don't have to consciously think about it for it to happen. Religion functions the same way in my view. For instance, I think the religious anti-abortion movement in the US serves the function of denying women the right to control their reproductive lives. This is a form of social control. This does not mean that the protesters on the street in Lakewood are deliberately trying to accomplish this.
There are also times where religion is deliberately modified for purposes of social control.

As to the original intent, it seems virtually impossible to me to determine that the original intent of any ancient cultural practice was. The best we can do is observe and analyze the phenomena and try to determine its function independent of any knowledge of the original intent.

link: Have you started reading any or Dr. Micheal Shermer's books yet?

Sure. Just stamp your feet and say "Don't make me prove anything." You just swallow what I give you. Wait, does that sound pornographic?

OK. Maybe it was not the intention of the creator. Maybe Nobel didn't mean to invent dynamite or Gelignite for killing people but that seems to be what it is used for.

Is false hope worth much?

It gives an answer. Now if we are so desperate for an answer that we prefer to say "God did it" as opposed to "I don't know", I suppose we deserve what it is worth.

Besides legally, whether you shot me on purpose or it was an accident, does it hurt any less?

Many times.

Or maybe we should outgrow it and move along with something else?