Jesus not a unique suffering Messiah - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

kerry · #1 07-10-2008, 04:36 PM

A OT scholar just linked me to this piece. It could have quite significant implications:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&sq=Ancient%20%20Tablet%20Ignites&st=nyt&scp=1

aklim · #2 07-10-2008, 04:47 PM

Question. Assuming it is real. If you gave your life for a cause, it might make you a somebody. However, if you could give your life knowing that you won't die from it, what does that make you? It is one thing for me to give everything I own to charity. However, If I know that what I gave I would immediately get back, what is the worth of my action?

cudaspaz · #3 07-10-2008, 06:06 PM

It's another thing to be the son of God that died so that we may live.

John 3:16.

aklim · #4 07-10-2008, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cudaspaz

It's another thing to be the son of God that died so that we may live.

John 3:16.

How so? Assuming he was real, he didn't really give up his life since he knew he could not die.

RichC · #5 07-10-2008, 06:25 PM

.

The death and resurrection theme is more common than not in most forms
of myth / religion.

From the ancient Egyptian god named Sol , I think it was.
All the way up to Jesus.

....

The death and resurrection theme was stolen from astronomy/astrology.

Starting on December 22 the sun in the northern hemisphere seems to
stand still for three days just below the horizon.
And on the third day it returns into sight.

The three stars slightly northeast of the rising sun point directly
to where the sun will rise on the third day.
AKA the three wise men from the east.

It is the same thing with most other Christian holidays.
They were mostly stolen from earlier beliefs.
Pagans worship trees.
Thats why we have the christmas tree.

The list goes on and on...

RichC

.

chetwesley · #6 07-10-2008, 06:43 PM

Of course you know religion and politics are the two things which inflame people the most, so I am reluctant to get into this, but it is my personal opinion that Jesus's life represented something which is timeless. There are many others who lived similar lives, to a greater or lesser degree - for example, Krishna
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jckr1.htm

It is hard to look at the Jesus story objectively because of facts getting lost in time and because of how people have taken the story and bent it to mean what they want to believe it means over time.

Imagine if we could just take the story of Jesus's life, and the things he is claimed to have said, as is with no religious (or anti-religious) belief or stimulus attached to it, like we can with the ancient Greek or Roman myths, or like people do with the sayings of the Buddha. We could probably get more out of it.

MS Fowler · #7 07-10-2008, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

.

The death and resurrection theme is more common than not in most forms
of myth / religion.

From the ancient Egyptian god named Sol , I think it was.
All the way up to Jesus.

....

The death and resurrection theme was stolen from astronomy/astrology.

Starting on December 22 the sun in the northern hemisphere seems to
stand still for three days just below the horizon.
And on the third day it returns into sight.

The three stars slightly northeast of the rising sun point directly
to where the sun will rise on the third day.
AKA the three wise men from the east.

It is the same thing with most other Christian holidays.
They were mostly stolen from earlier beliefs.
Pagans worship trees.
Thats why we have the christmas tree.

The list goes on and on...

RichC

.

There is NO biblical reference to "three wise men from the east"

You, and others, need to be more careful in reading the Bible if you are going to criticize it.

Hogweed · #8 10-12-2010, 07:32 AM

read about Gnostic heresy and docetism to explain this 2000 year old argument that questions the humanity of Jesus. Jesus crying out in agony on the cross "Eli, Eli, lama sabbacthini?"...why are you forsaking me? asking God to let him not have to go through the pain and humiliation of crucifixion, and the worst agony of all: seperation from God, which He had known forever is surely not nothing, and certainly does not sound like someone who is immune to suffering and death

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

How so? Assuming he was real, he didn't really give up his life since he knew he could not die.

aklim · #9 10-12-2010, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hogweed

read about Gnostic heresy and docetism to explain this 2000 year old argument that questions the humanity of Jesus. Jesus crying out in agony on the cross "Eli, Eli, lama sabbacthini?"...why are you forsaking me? asking God to let him not have to go through the pain and humiliation of crucifixion, and the worst agony of all: seperation from God, which He had known forever is surely not nothing, and certainly does not sound like someone who is immune to suffering and death

Matthew 27:62-63

62Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

That kinda hints to me that he knew he would die and he knew he would come back in 3 days. Knowing that, what is the sacrifice of life? If I know that by giving you $1000 your father would compensate me for it, what is the real sacrifice? OTOH, if I don't know what will happen, I have to think carefully about giving you the money since I don't know how I will make it back.

strelnik · #10 10-12-2010, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Question. Assuming it is real. If you gave your life for a cause, it might make you a somebody. However, if you could give your life knowing that you won't die from it, what does that make you? It is one thing for me to give everything I own to charity. However, If I know that what I gave I would immediately get back, what is the worth of my action?

Understood. Consider, Aklim, that you felt this too, after seeing for thirty-some years how everyone dies and doesn't come back, while another side of you keeps telling you that "it's ok, you'll come back" . But you'll have to suffer indescribable mockery, highly painfil torture, shunned politically, and "take it on faith...trust me" you'll rise.

Oh by the way, every time you try to communicate with a higher power about your feelings, you get no visible answer, just this gnawing little response..." Trust me."

How certain would you feel? How scared would you feel?
Every been wheeled into surgery ? What was in your mind as the anesthesiologist puts the mask over your nose and says " Don't worry about a thing?"

aklim · #11 10-12-2010, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

Understood. Consider, Aklim, that you felt this too, after seeing for thirty-some years how everyone dies and doesn't come back, while another side of you keeps telling you that "it's ok, you'll come back" . But you'll have to suffer indescribable mockery, highly painfil torture, shunned politically, and "take it on faith...trust me" you'll rise.

Oh by the way, every time you try to communicate with a higher power about your feelings, you get no visible answer, just this gnawing little response..." Trust me."

How certain would you feel? How scared would you feel?
Every been wheeled into surgery ? What was in your mind as the anesthesiologist puts the mask over your nose and says " Don't worry about a thing?"

He was also endowed with super powers if the miracles were to be believed. Not sure there wasn't some sort of communication between Dad and him

Lest we forget Matthew and Luke and others who said "This is my beloved son....." or words to that effect.

I checked out the anesthesiologist who had a needle in my arm to shut me down. Odds were that I would get out of it alive so I was ok with that.

strelnik · #12 10-12-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

He was also endowed with super powers if the miracles were to be believed. Not sure there wasn't some sort of communication between Dad and him

Lest we forget Matthew and Luke and others who said "This is my beloved son....." or words to that effect.

I checked out the anesthesiologist who had a needle in my arm to shut me down. Odds were that I would get out of it alive so I was ok with that.

How do you know Dad didn't tell him, just to make it all real for us fallible beings?

"This is my beloved Son..hear him." No other guidance. Ya gotta trust that the Son is in control and knows everything Dad does. Since I don't speak with certainty and directly to either of them, like I do to people, I have to suspend judgment as to what kind of super powers he had. I freely admit I don't know what that would be.

link · #13 07-11-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

A OT scholar just linked me to this piece. It could have quite significant implications:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&sq=Ancient%20%20Tablet%20Ignites&st=nyt&scp=1

Thanks for posting this link. Wouldn’t it be great to be a scholar of the Old testament, or the New one for that matter!?! It would make for a very serene profession.

I remember from my school studies that at the time Christ lived, there were many many many supposed profits. The death and resurrection part of the narrative were said by one of my profs to have originated starting thousands of years before Christ. I did a Google search to supplement my failing memory and a sources said that deities to have gone through resurrection include Osiris, Adonis, Tammuz, Zalmoxis, phoenix, Jesus, Baldr, and Odin.

The article went on to state that “Female deities who passed into the kingdom of death and returned include Inanna (also known as Ishtar) whose cult dates to 4000 BC and Persephone, the central figure of the Eleusinian Mysteries, whose cult may date to 1700 BC as the unnamed goddess worshiped in Crete.”

I’m unfamiliar with many of these deities, but the roll call provides evidence that the idea of resurrection existed thousands of years prior to JC and the portrail was well developed by the time it was incorporated into the legend of JC. It has probably the greatest dramatic appeal of any part of the narrative.

If one were to take death and resurrection as a sign of being touched by a god, what of all those who have gone through this by accident or as a necessary part of modern surgery? It would “prove” that there are many son’s and daughters of god…

BTW, Kerry, in a previous thread I wrote that speaking in tongues was done for dramatic appeal, I think there may have been a misunderstanding. I wasn’t characterizing your comment as done for dramatic appeal, but rather that the act of speaking in tongues as a tool of drama.

aklim · #14 07-11-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by link

I did a Google search to supplement my failing memory and a sources said that deities to have gone through resurrection include Osiris, Adonis, Tammuz, Zalmoxis, phoenix, Jesus, Baldr, and Odin.

Odin was often portrayed as the grey-bearded old man with one eye, his face hidden by a hood or a broad brimmed hat, because he had cast an eye into Mimir's well in return for a drink of its "immense wisdom". Even after losing an eye, Odin's love of wisdom was so profound that he was prepared to sacrafice himself to plumb its depths. He gained insight by hanging himself for nine days from Yggdrasil, the cosmic tree (imagery: think of the movie Conan when he was tied to the Tree of Woe). This voluntary death, and his subsequent resurrection by means of magic gave Odin greater wisdom than anyone else. It is possible that the obvious parallel between this myth and the Crucifixion gave Christianity a head-start in northern Europe.

link · #15 07-11-2008, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Odin was often portrayed as the grey-bearded old man with one eye, his face hidden by a hood or a broad brimmed hat, because he had cast an eye into Mimir's well in return for a drink of its "immense wisdom". Even after losing an eye, Odin's love of wisdom was so profound that he was prepared to sacrafice himself to plumb its depths. He gained insight by hanging himself for nine days from Yggdrasil, the cosmic tree (imagery: think of the movie Conan when he was tied to the Tree of Woe). This voluntary death, and his subsequent resurrection by means of magic gave Odin greater wisdom than anyone else. It is possible that the obvious parallel between this myth and the Crucifixion gave Christianity a head-start in northern Europe.

I love this stuff. A lot of it can be seen as ways to illustrate the ideology of the culture from which it sprang.