Jesus not a unique suffering Messiah - Page 11 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

#**151** 10-12-2010, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Duty is a big part of it. But definitely not all of it. Why do quantum physicists want to convince Newtonian physicists that they have an inadequate physical theory? Because the quantum physicist thinks they are right and the Newtonians wrong. Similarly with religious people.

I guess so, but I don't put a lot of effort into trying to convince others to be atheists. I don't really care what others believe, or don't believe (as long as they are not in a position of imposing their beliefs on others). Maybe I just have more important things to worry about.

I also, don't really understand the motivation of atheists who go out of their way to "disprove" the existence of someone else's god; why do they care? I do understand why rational people fight against mythology being taught as science in schools and influencing government policy, but that is really a different issue.

kerry · #**152** 10-12-2010, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Quantum or Newtonian physics has way more use than religion though.

No disagreement from me there.

strelnik · #**153** 10-12-2010, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Question. Assuming it is real. If you gave your life for a cause, it might make you a somebody. However, if you could give your life knowing that you won't die from it, what does that make you? It is one thing for me to give everything I own to charity. However, If I know that what I gave I would immediately get back, what is the worth of my action?

Understood. Consider, Aklim, that you felt this too, after seeing for thirty-some years how everyone dies and doesn't come back, while another side of you keeps telling you that "it's ok, you'll come back" . But you'll have to suffer indescribable mockery, highly painfil torture, shunned politically, and "take it on faith...trust me" you'll rise.

Oh by the way, every time you try to communicate with a higher power about your feelings, you get no visible answer, just this gnawing little response..." Trust me."

How certain would you feel? How scared would you feel?
Every been wheeled into surgery ? What was in your mind as the anesthesiologist puts the mask over your nose and says " Don't worry about a thing?"

MS Fowler · #**154** 10-12-2010, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

I guess so, but I don't put a lot of effort into trying to convince others to be atheists. I don't really care what others believe, or don't believe (as long as they are not in a position of imposing their beliefs on others). Maybe I just have more important things to worry about.

I also, don't really understand the motivation of atheists who go out of their way to "disprove" the existence of someone else's god; why do they care? I do understand why rational people fight against mythology being taught as science in schools and influencing government policy, but that is really a different issue.

Speaking only for myself....
My presence here is to provide answers from as much of an orthodox reformation position as I can. If you, or anyone, rejects Christ, that is your, or their, decision. I just want to make sure that someone is really rejecting Christ, and not some misunderstanding about Him. ( It would really suck to find out you really rejected some incorrect presentation about Christ, wouldn't it).
The decision is yours.

#**155** 10-12-2010, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Speaking only for myself....
My presence here is to provide answers from as much of an orthodox reformation position as I can. If you, or anyone, rejects Christ, that is your, or their, decision. I just want to make sure that someone is really rejecting Christ, and not some misunderstanding about Him. ( It would really suck to find out you really rejected some incorrect presentation about Christ, wouldn't it).
The decision is yours.

That's the part I really don't get. Why do you care if others have a belief system that is similar to yours? Of the 100s (or 1000s) of belief systems that have existed over the last several millennium, why are you interested in convincing others that your version is more correct than all the others?

If I did choose to believe in some version of "god," my chances of picking the correct version would be pretty slim; or should I just believe in whatever my parents happened to believe (inherited from their parents)?

aklim · #**156** 10-12-2010, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

Understood. Consider, Aklim, that you felt this too, after seeing for thirty-some years how everyone dies and doesn't come back, while another side of you keeps telling you that "it's ok, you'll come back" . But you'll have to suffer indescribable mockery, highly painfil torture, shunned politically, and "take it on faith...trust me" you'll rise.

Oh by the way, every time you try to communicate with a higher power about your feelings, you get no visible answer, just this gnawing little response..." Trust me."

How certain would you feel? How scared would you feel?
Every been wheeled into surgery ? What was in your mind as the anesthesiologist puts the mask over your nose and says " Don't worry about a thing?"

He was also endowed with super powers if the miracles were to be believed. Not sure there wasn't some sort of communication between Dad and him

Lest we forget Matthew and Luke and others who said "This is my beloved son....." or words to that effect.

I checked out the anesthesiologist who had a needle in my arm to shut me down. Odds were that I would get out of it alive so I was ok with that.

strelnik · #**157** 10-12-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

He was also endowed with super powers if the miracles were to be believed. Not sure there wasn't some sort of communication between Dad and him

Lest we forget Matthew and Luke and others who said "This is my beloved son....." or words to that effect.

I checked out the anesthesiologist who had a needle in my arm to shut me down. Odds were that I would get out of it alive so I was ok with that.

How do you know Dad didn't tell him, just to make it all real for us fallible beings?

"This is my beloved Son..hear him." No other guidance. Ya gotta trust that the Son is in control and knows everything Dad does. Since I don't speak with certainty and directly to either of them, like I do to people, I have to suspend judgment as to what kind of super powers he had. I freely admit I don't know what that would be.

MS Fowler · #**158** 10-12-2010, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

That's the part I really don't get. Why do you care if others have a belief system that is similar to yours? Of the 100s (or 1000s) of belief systems that have existed over the last several millennium, why are you interested in convincing others that your version is more correct than all the others?

If I did choose to believe in some version of "god," my chances of picking the correct version would be pretty slim; or should I just believe in whatever my parents happened to believe (inherited from their parents)?

It goes back to the "duty" thing. You have to put yourself into my frame of mind ( only for a minute). Assume for a moment that my beliefs are correct, i.e. that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Now, what kind of heel would I be if I kept that knowledge to myself? Am I not under obligation to tell my neighbor, and so do good for him? Should I condemn others to hell by refusing to tell them of the good news that heaven is a free gift?

Remember, I respect your choice--as one created in the moral image of the creator, you have worth, and are due respect. The choice is yours.

raslaje · #**159** 10-12-2010, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Speaking only for myself....
My presence here is to provide answers from as much of an orthodox reformation position as I can. .

Perhaps then you will answer a question that has puzzled me for a long time. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to satisfy my curiosity. How do you, as one who has come out of the reformation as you say, view Christianity during the 1500 or so years from Christ to Luther or Calvin or whoever is was that decided Christian belief had gone astray? I mean do you view that all Christians for those 1500 years were in error? Or was there a period of correct belief and you can identify exactly when and how Christian belief took a wrong turn?

pj67coll · #**160** 10-12-2010, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

I also, don't really understand the motivation of atheists who go out of their way to "disprove" the existence of someone else's god; why do they care? I do understand why rational people fight against mythology being taught as science in schools and influencing government policy, but that is really a different issue.

How is it different? They care because of the prevalence of the superstitious mindset in society which directly influences the infiltration of schools and government with it's opinion.

- Peter.

kerry · #**161** 10-12-2010, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Remember, I respect your choice--as one created in the moral image of the creator, you have worth, and are due respect. The choice is yours.

It is impossible for me to reconcile the above sentence with your claim to represent an orthodox reformation perspective. That sentence is a product of American notions of freedom and choice absent from the reformation. Especially for Calvin, no human has the ability to freely choose God. We are all born in sin and must be chosen by God not vice versa. Your view is the heresy of Pelagianism with a respectability only concurred by the fact that all of modern democracy is a product of the Pelagian heresy.

kerry · #**162** 10-12-2010, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

I also, don't really understand the motivation of atheists who go out of their way to "disprove" the existence of someone else's god; why do they care? I do understand why rational people fight against mythology being taught as science in schools and influencing government policy, but that is really a different issue.

I don't think they are two separate issue. In my view, the vocal atheists think that the power of a culture is diminished to the extent that it accepts magic and superstition into itself. It's an attempt to defend modern democratic culture against its superstitious opponents. I have a fair amount of sympathy with this view but some reservations. No traditional theism was democratic. They were authoritarian and hierarchical. So theism in itself appears to have a non-democratic political trajectory.

chilcutt · #**163** 10-12-2010, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

It goes back to the "duty" thing. You have to put yourself into my frame of mind ( only for a minute). Assume for a moment that my beliefs are correct, i.e. that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Now, what kind of heel would I be if I kept that knowledge to myself? Am I not under obligation to tell my neighbor, and so do good for him? Should I condemn others to hell by refusing to tell them of the good news that heaven is a free gift?

Remember, I respect your choice--as one created in the moral image of the creator, you have worth, and are due respect. The choice is yours.

Question. Be honest. What comes into your mind, how do you feel when someone..lets take me for example.. says ,"Glory be to Allah, and praise be to Allah, and there is no greater Diety but Allah, Allah is Greatest'. just wondering if your intitial reaction is a tightening of the arteries,,,increased blood-flow, a little adrenaline. What say you?

tonkovich · #**164** 10-12-2010, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

It goes back to the "duty" thing. You have to put yourself into my frame of mind ( only for a minute). Assume for a moment that my beliefs are correct, i.e. that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Now, what kind of heel would I be if I kept that knowledge to myself? Am I not under obligation to tell my neighbor, and so do good for him? Should I condemn others to hell by refusing to tell them of the good news that heaven is a free gift?

Remember, I respect your choice--as one created in the moral image of the creator, you have worth, and are due respect. The choice is yours.

what is "heaven"?

who is "jesus"?

where and how did you find out about these concepts?

chilcutt · #**165** 10-12-2010, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonkovich

what is "heaven"?

who is "jesus"?

where and how did you find out about these concepts?

Both 'Heavan', and 'Jesus' are also found in the Qu`ran, and 'Jesus' is mentioned frequently during many of my classes on Islam..and in a favorable light.. I just dont recall ever hearing 'Muhammed', 'Islam' mentioned in any of the Christian sermons that I used to attend...hmmm...why do you think that is?