Jesus not a unique suffering Messiah - Page 12 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

kerry · #**166** 10-13-2010, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

Both 'Heavan', and 'Jesus' are also found in the Qu`ran, and 'Jesus' is mentioned frequently during many of my classes on Islam..and in a favorable light.. I just dont recall ever hearing 'Muhammed', 'Islam' mentioned in any of the Christian sermons that I used to attend...hmmm...why do you think that is?

Just an accident of temporal sequence. Muhammed had to say something about Jesus since he was known in Muhammed's day. Muhammed, on the other hand, came into existence after Christianity was established so he could easily be ignored as a false prophet.
Same situation applies with Mormonism.

chilcutt · #**167** 10-13-2010, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Just an accident of temporal sequence. Muhammed had to say something about Jesus since he was known in Muhammed's day. Muhammed, on the other hand, came into existence after Christianity was established so he could easily be ignored as a false prophet.
Same situation applies with Mormonism.

I understand that. But the point I am actually trying to make, is that one reason I walked away from Christianity , is that I noticed a lot of Hypocrasy when it comes to other religions. I am not attempting to 'sell' Islam, but from my experiances Muslims are standing with their arms wide open, waiting to embrace their fellow Christians..but are not recieving reciprication from the other side.
In my eyes, this reluctance on the part of Christians to embrace other reigions/peoples will only hurt them in the end, as more people of the Christian faith open their eyes to whats really going on.
The sheer numbers are staggering, and I think strike fear into the hearts of Christians, who have enjoyed the 'power' for so long.
On average with birth rates, and conversions taking place , 15,000 new Muslims are being added to Earths population each, and every hour. Add that to the already over 1-1/2 Billion Muslims world wide...I think everyone gets the picture...~

kerry · #**168** 10-13-2010, 12:35 AM

Every religion in the world is filled with hypocrisy. It's an inevitable feature of any human institution. What kinds of hypocrisy arise depends on the historical circumstances. You suggest Islam is better because it is open to Christianity. I say this is just accidental to their sequence. If you want to test the openness of Islam, ask how open it is to Wicca.

#**169** 10-13-2010, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

It goes back to the "duty" thing. You have to put yourself into my frame of mind ( only for a minute). Assume for a moment that my beliefs are correct, i.e. that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Now, what kind of heel would I be if I kept that knowledge to myself? Am I not under obligation to tell my neighbor, and so do good for him? Should I condemn others to hell by refusing to tell them of the good news that heaven is a free gift?

Remember, I respect your choice--as one created in the moral image of the creator, you have worth, and are due respect. The choice is yours.

Fair enough; I just find it strange that every religion on the planet (including those that died out centuries ago, and probably those that haven't been invented yet) has members that are convinced that they have the only true answer. Maybe I just don't understand faith, but I can't help thinking that most people's belief system is mostly an accident of where and when they lived and what their society/parents believed. Is there any good reason to believe that the Druids didn't have it right, or that the one true religion won't be "discovered" for another 500 years? As an outside observer, it all seems too arbitrary.

tonkovich · #**170** 10-13-2010, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

I understand that. But the point I am actually trying to make, is that one reason I walked away from Christianity , is that I noticed a lot of Hypocrasy when it comes to other religions. I am not attempting to 'sell' Islam, but from my experiances Muslims are standing with their arms wide open, waiting to embrace their fellow Christians..but are not recieving reciprication from the other side.
In my eyes, this reluctance on the part of Christians to embrace other reigions/peoples will only hurt them in the end, as more people of the Christian faith open their eyes to whats really going on.
The sheer numbers are staggering, and I think strike fear into the hearts of Christians, who have enjoyed the 'power' for so long.
On average with birth rates, and conversions taking place , 15,000 new Muslims are being added to Earths population each, and every hour. Add that to the already over 1-1/2 Billion Muslims world wide...I think everyone gets the picture...~

and just because a lot of people believe in something, that makes it good?

try this: imagine just living - because after all, that's what you're doing, regardless of what you label yourself - and realize that all these characters, jesus, muhammad, abraham that you busy yourself with are either long dead or never existed, and that they really weren't so bright or advanced or enlightened. why should they be any more worthy of your interest than, say, abe vigoda or quantum physics? (actually, quantum physics might be more important than these religio-hustiorical characters? figures?)

#**171** 10-13-2010, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

I don't think they are two separate issue. In my view, the vocal atheists think that the power of a culture is diminished to the extent that it accepts magic and superstition into itself. It's an attempt to defend modern democratic culture against its superstitious opponents. I have a fair amount of sympathy with this view but some reservations. No traditional theism was democratic. They were authoritarian and hierarchical. So theism in itself appears to have a non-democratic political trajectory.

I agree that superstition is a waste of time and resources and can actually be dangerous in the wrong circumstances. I also recognize that there is an almost universal need for people to externalize their moral code. I guess I don't have enough "faith" in the masses, but maybe it's a good thing that many of them live in fear of a superior being. I'm fairly comfortable with the status quo, as long as the people elected to high offices of major nations are only pretending to believe in magic. Is that too cynical?

kerry · #**172** 10-13-2010, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Fair enough; I just find it strange that every religion on the planet (including those that died out centuries ago, and probably those that haven't been invented yet) has members that are convinced that they have the only true answer. Maybe I just don't understand faith, but I can't help thinking that most people's belief system is mostly an accident of where and when they lived and what their society/parents believed. Is there any good reason to believe that the Druids didn't have it right, or that the one true religion won't be "discovered" for another 500 years? As an outside observer, it all seems too arbitrary.

Not only is it arbitrary, but many religions apply extreme sanctions to people in that religion who deviate from the faith. Both Christianity and Islam traditionally applied the death penalty to heretics. Such practices are anathema to serious pursuit of the truth.

So why is the typical religious believer apparently completely oblivious to such obvious facts? I propose that one reason is that religion frequently develops through the blind acceptance of authority. I recently had a conversation with a religious professional educated at one of the most well respected seminaries in the country. She believed that a certain ritual performed at specific times was central to her religion. I asked her why? Her answer was, 'That's what I was taught at seminary.' She seemed to think that was a serious answer to the question.

#**173** 10-13-2010, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Every religion in the world is filled with hypocrisy. It's an inevitable feature of any human institution. What kinds of hypocrisy arise depends on the historical circumstances. You suggest Islam is better because it is open to Christianity. I say this is just accidental to their sequence. If you want to test the openness of Islam, ask how open it is to Wicca.

I have nothing for or against Islam, but it just seems to be the flavor of the month. As the youngest major religion, I would expect it to be gaining popularity while the older religious traditions are declining. It appears that Islam is enjoying the same kind of success that christianity saw during it's peak expansion several 100 years ago. I don't know if that makes one religion more correct, or more successful; I suspect that all beliefs have a natural life cycle and it's currently Islam's turn to be more popular.

Speaking of Wicca, I have a pagan friend with a bumper sticker that says, "I have more gods than you." At least they have a sense of humor.

aklim · #**174** 10-13-2010, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Should I condemn others to hell by refusing to tell them of the good news that heaven is a free gift?

Remember, I respect your choice--as one created in the moral image of the creator, you have worth, and are due respect. The choice is yours.

IF the choice is indeed mine, why would you be condemning me to anything? It would be because of my actions or inaction that did that.

Also, if it is free, there should be no strings attached. Do I have to do anything to get that gift? If I have to believe in the faith to get the gift, it isn't free, is it?

kerry · #**175** 10-13-2010, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

I agree that superstition is a waste of time and resources and can actually be dangerous in the wrong circumstances. I also recognize that there is an almost universal need for people to eternalize their moral code. I guess I don't have enough "faith" in the masses, but maybe it's a good thing that many of them live in fear of a superior being. I'm fairly comfortable with the status quo, as long as the people elected to high offices of major nations are only pretending to believe in magic. Is that too cynical?

I don't think that's cynical, just realistic. However, I wouldn't limit the necessary group of non-believers to just politicians. I've mentioned this before on here and I don't want to belabor the point, but a few years ago at an 'academic' session at the Colorado School of Mines, I was astounded to discover that a professor was involved in promoting the belief to Mines' students that the earth was only 8000 yrs old. When one of the premier engineering schools in the country has a pretty well supported effort to spread superstition amongst its students, there is reason to be concerned about the extent to which such nonsense will have an effect on the country.

chilcutt · #**176** 10-13-2010, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Every religion in the world is filled with hypocrisy. It's an inevitable feature of any human institution. What kinds of hypocrisy arise depends on the historical circumstances. You suggest Islam is better because it is open to Christianity. I say this is just accidental to their sequence. If you want to test the openness of Islam, ask how open it is to Wicca.

Hmm..I am not suggesting that Islam is better, as that train of thought is discouraged by the particular set of Muslims that I associate with, and the classes that I am attending. The larger picture that I am trying to present is that like it or not...Islam is growing quickly on a world scale, and Christians would perhaps be better off accepting that fact, as opposed to turning a cold shoulder, and recognising that as the 2 most powerfull religions on earth, we must find a common ground.
Muslims arent just going to 'go away' because the Christians wont recognise them.

#**177** 10-13-2010, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Not only is it arbitrary, but many religions apply extreme sanctions to people in that religion who deviate from the faith. Both Christianity and Islam traditionally applied the death penalty to heretics. Such practices are anathema to serious pursuit of the truth.

So why is the typical religious believer apparently completely oblivious to such obvious facts? I propose that one reason is that religion frequently develops through the blind acceptance of authority. I recently had a conversation with a religious professional educated at one of the most well respected seminaries in the country. She believed that a certain ritual performed at specific times was central to her religion. I asked her why? Her answer was, 'That's what I was taught at seminary.' She seemed to think that was a serious answer to the question.

I do think there is a difference between the actual religious beliefs and the power structures that claim to act on the authority of religion. I'm certainly not defending the practices of the governments and churches that claim to be acting on religious authority; I just assume that the people in charge of those institutions are acting in their own self interest and using religion as a method of keeping the unwashed masses in line. I do think that their are people who legitimately believe in religious teachings, and that they are able to separate their personal beliefs from the misdeeds of religious authorities. I also think that some religious folks are intellectually lazy and prefer to accept a "pre-packaged" religious doctrine that answers all the questions that they would prefer not to think about. Obviously, religion performs some function, or it wouldn't still be around.

aklim · #**178** 10-13-2010, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

Hmm..I am not suggesting that Islam is better, as that train of thought is discouraged by the particular set of Muslims that I associate with, and the classes that I am attending.

recognising that as the 2 most powerfull religions on earth, we must find a common ground.

Muslims arent just going to 'go away' because the Christians wont recognise them.

I have attended some Christian classes too. Thing is, they all see warm and fuzzy at the beginning. After all, when I am trying to get you hooked on drugs, do I show you a happy wonderful time or bring you to a rehab center and show you what can become of addicts and then the morgue?

Besides the superstitious belief in some supposedly all powerful entity that won't dare to show himself/herself/itself except in some vague sign that can be interpreted any way one chooses? I say the same thing to Christians, Muslims, Taoists, etc, etc. If your deity is so great, have him/her/it meet me in some crowded place and show me who he/she/it is. Should be a cinch if they are that powerful. If not, they are not worthy of any worship. Vague signs from a long time ago don't cut it.

The best religions can do is tolerate each other. Just like 2 shops that sell exactly the same thing but different brands. If that were us, would you be telling your customers that I sell an equally good product? I know I won't. I will acknowledge that you are there if they bring it up but I will try to find some way to make my product look superior.

chilcutt · #**179** 10-13-2010, 01:36 AM

Y'all are talking way over my head

. But I learn from what you write, please carry on.

#**180** 10-13-2010, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

I don't think that's cynical, just realistic. However, I wouldn't limit the necessary group of non-believers to just politicians. I've mentioned this before on here and I don't want to belabor the point, but a few years ago at an 'academic' session at the Colorado School of Mines, I was astounded to discover that a professor was involved in promoting the belief to Mines' students that the earth was only 8000 yrs old. When one of the premier engineering schools in the country has a pretty well supported effort to spread superstition amongst its students, there is reason to be concerned about the extent to which such nonsense will have an effect on the country.

That is scary. I only mentioned politicians because they are in a position to most directly influence public policy. I do know some very intelligent technical people who are also religious, but they are able to compartmentalize their beliefs and their technical knowledge. Of course, most of them do not have a "fundamentalist" belief system, they are sophisticated enough to understand that "science asks how and religion asks why" (I forget who said that).