PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum - Jesus not a unique suffering Messiah

PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/)

- Off-Topic Discussion (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/off-topic-discussion/)

- - Jesus not a unique suffering Messiah (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/off-topic-discussion/227256-jesus-not-unique-suffering-messiah.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 1907325)

So one is to buy it wholesale?

How does creation prove anything?By it's very existence.

So now it comes down to hedging bets? Forced into a way of thinking because you are afraid to be wrong? ............Afraid ?...You have freedom of choice...how can you be afraid of your choice ?

Please elaborate on what you are speaking of. ..........Of what do you speak ?

.But just because we chose to believe it doesn't make it right. People chose to believe the universally held "fact" that the sun orbited the earth. ...................Contrary to the biblical view.Didn't do too well on that one. What about the "flat earth theory"? Didn't work out either. ............Bible spoke of this YEARS before, and got it right.

You have your beliefs and I mine. We will all have to answer to that one way or another.

How do you explain the periodic table?

When was it ? Blood had to be liquid inside the body and solid outside,,,when did that happen?

The chicken or the egg ?

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkveuro (Post 1907445)

You have your beliefs and I mine. We will all have to answer to that one way or another.

How do you explain the periodic table? When was it ? Blood had to be liquid inside the body and solid outside,,,when did that happen? The chicken or the egg ?

Not if I am right and this life is all there is.

What about it? That is your thesis? I cannot explain this so we plug in an answer?

Scared and lost people use religion like a drug, and become dependant and weaker. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idolotor (Post 1907465)

Scared and lost people use religion like a drug, and become dependant and weaker. :rolleyes:

Strong and courageous people use religion like a drug and become independent and stronger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry (Post 1907468)

Strong and courageous people use religion like a drug and become independent and stronger.

Truly strong and courageous people don't need to use ANYTHING like a drug. Drugs or religion.

FYI - Independence and religion don't belong together. Religion doesn't want you to be independent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry (Post 1907468)

Strong and courageous people use religion like a drug and become independent and stronger.

And when would they be able to kick the drug habit? Before or after the heroine addict? If you have to use a religion to get stronger, isn't it like steroids? Builds muscle good but......

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 1907394)

Is false hope worth much?

Try and define “hope” and make a discinction between “hope” and “false hope” and then quantify the value of each.

Quote:

It gives an answer. Now if we are so desperate for an answer that we prefer to say "God did it" as opposed to "I don't know", I suppose we deserve what it is worth.

Why does desperation enter the question?

Quote:

Originally Posted by link (Post 1907926)

Try and define “hope” and make a discinction between “hope” and “false hope” and then quantify the value of each.

Why does desperation enter the question

hope: to cherish a desire with anticipation. In that case, it is something that I could definitely see as a possibility. In the case of false hope, I would say it is probably something I would be trying to believe in because I am too weak to bear the possibility that it doesn't occur. Not the best definition but that is about it.

Why not? If you are not desperate for an answer, you could hold out till the right one comes along or not even have it ever. If we are desperate for an answer, could we just grab whatever is there and try make it the right one? So I don't know the answer. I don't need to have an answer right now or ever, do I? I would say that I am not desperate to have an answer. Now if I needed an answer because I don't know the answer, isn't that desperation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry (Post 1907376)

My view is not that people consciously do this. There is no need for conscious activity in order to explain the function of a phenomena. Your heart functions to pump blood but you don't have to consciously think about it for it to happen. Religion functions the same way in my view. For instance, I think the religious anti-abortion movement in the US serves the function of denying women the right to control their reproductive lives. This is a form of social control. This does not mean that the protesters on the street in Lakewood are deliberately trying to accomplish this.

This thread started out discussing a scholarly finding and it’s implications. Your comment above, while an accurate portrayal of a modern phenomena of the anti-abortion movement, has only a vague relationship to with the topic at the outset. What you are suggesting is a rough analogy to blaming the inventor of the wheel for all deaths related to use of the wheel. The person or persons who first discovered the wheel found something of high practical use. They could not know nor could have foreseen that one or more incarnations of their discovery, would be responsible for probably billions of deaths over time. It may be convenient to say so, but doesn’t amount to an accurate portrait. Along these lines, infanticide has been practiced repeatedly by humanity. The practice is likely as old as humanity and continues to this day. That some have used the tool that is religion as a club to combat those who would peruse abortion is just a reflection of the nature of humanity - just another use of the wheel, if you’ll permit an analogy. But it doesn’t mean or imply that religious texts created thousands of years ago were developed to support the anti-abortion movement.

Quote:

As to the original intent, it seems virtually impossible to me to determine that the original intent of any ancient cultural practice was. The best we can do is observe and analyze the phenomena and try to determine its function independent of any knowledge of the original intent.

I don’t think that’s the best approach, even if commonly done. What I learned in both undergrad and grad school is to use primary information as far as possible, and to use secondary information as far as possible but to note the distinctions. There are a number of disciplines that can reveal a lot about ancient cultures. The goal of a disciplined study is that illusive thing called “the truth.” Anything short of this typically falls to a convenience that is typically highly pre-determines the outcome of the analysis.

Quote:

There are also times where religion is deliberately modified for purposes of social control.

Yep. But you are talking about the organization of religion, more than the text.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idolotor (Post 1907377)

link: Have you started reading any or Dr. Micheal Shermer's books yet?

It's on my list - thanks for the references, but i won't get to it until at least around fall

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 1907930)

You are being evasive.

Listen: You are going to die due to cancer. If the cancer doesn’t kill you, the treatment for it will. But you’ll have the treatment. And you won’t believe you’re going to die until you start axial breathing.

Now tell me again about hope compared to false hope

Quote:

Originally Posted by link (Post 1907939)

Sorry about that. I wasn't trying to be.

Personally, in this case, I wouldn't have the treatment.

I suppose in this case, I would be trying to talk myself into believing that I can somehow beat the odds with the treatment and survive. Without the treatment, I would die for sure. With the treatment, there is a chance that the doctors are wrong and I might make it thru or so I would be trying to convince myself. Maybe you are right. Hope is hope and you cannot tell which it is until it is over. Maybe one type of hope could be classified as "real hope" where there is a chance that it will happen and the other is one where you have to talk yourself into believing? Not sure. Will have to think more on it.

What is your take on it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC (Post 1907225)

.

Ridiculous !

Just because many children believe in Santa, does not make him reality.

And just because you and others think Christianity is a "revealed religion"
does not make it true.
There is absolutely no evidence that you can point to that proves your point.
And without proof, all you have is belief.
And belief does not make things exist.

Your religion is no more special than anyone else's.

You are trying to say...

"My god can beat up your god"

....

If you ever see the phrase "My god can beat up your god" written on
a bathroom wall.
I was probably the guy who wrote it there.

....

I see no point in any religion that is man-made.
We've had this part of the discussion here before, now, just for the sake of clarity let me briefly state it--then bow out, because there will be no new information, just an exchange of hot air..

AS Paul, the author of Romans points out, if the resurrection of Jesus is false, then Christianity is a false religion and is best ignored. But he preached Christ crucified and risen. No "proof" other than the testimony of eyewitnesses, combined with the violent deaths of most of the original disciples/apostles. Men do not generally die for what they know to be a lie. ( others will argue that point).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idolotor (Post 1907345)

With over five thousand separate religions on Earth and over a thousand different gods servicing those religions, I have yet to see any true "miracles" by any of these gods in my lifetime so far. I'm not holding my breath...:rolleyes:

Usually when people point out the numerous religions on earth it is to show an equivilency; not any one can be true because there are so many.

I look at it differently ( that surprised no one).
Suppose, for the sake of argument, that Christianity is the one and true religion. No suppose you are opposed to that religion, and want no one to believe. What better way that to produce other, more logical, intuitive religions for people to believe. What about developing other religions as near copies of the truth, but with just enough error to hide the truth from people.
The plethora of false religions is then no mystery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler (Post 1908006)

No "proof" other than the testimony of eyewitnesses, combined with the violent deaths of most of the original disciples/apostles. Men do not generally die for what they know to be a lie. ( others will argue that point).

People we cannot question to see if they really saw what they saw. People see lots of things. Some true, some false. No, you are right, men do not generally die for what the know to be a lie. But just because they think they know it is the truth doesn't make it the truth. People willingly died when Jim Jones told them to do so because they believed what he said. Didn't make what he said true either.