... and now it happened. - Page 8 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #**106** 12-29-2008, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

Indeed. That, however, is a distinction without meaning to the 25,000 or so civvies who got stung into oblivion by the Allied's bombs.

It's a distinction with great meaning to the millions who DID NOT get fire-bombed in other cities.

B

BENZ-LGB · #**107** 12-29-2008, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

I can precisely see, how YOU can see both sides, although you appeare more like the "Nobody Listened" kind of guy.

Your ability to "figure" people out could fit in Tom Thumb's piss pot and still have room left over.

BTW, the correct word is either "appear" or "appeared."

tankdriver · #**108** 12-29-2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

The problem with what you are saying is that you are thinking it is a boxing match where after the bell rings, you go to your corner and I go to mine. In this case, the winner took the territory after the fight. If the 48 war didn't take place and the Israelis took territory, you have a point. Taking the loser's territory after a fight is pretty common.

It may be pretty common, but it's not hard to see how the losers may continue to fight over it.

BENZ-LGB · #**109** 12-29-2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

It's a distinction with great meaning to the millions who DID NOT get fire-bombed in other cities.

B

Again, that all depends on whose ox is being gored.

Incidentally, to the inhabitants of Tokyo (during WWII's fire bombings) that would also be a distinction without real meaning.

Carleton Hughes · #**110** 12-29-2008, 09:35 PM

My,what a choice crew of "happies"we all are.

BENZ-LGB · #**111** 12-29-2008, 09:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Carleton Hughes

My,what a choice crew of "happies"we all are.

Lead on....

tankdriver · #**112** 12-29-2008, 10:00 PM

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Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels

Good post, Let me take it point for point again.
Point 1 200:1 kill ratio. If HAMAS did not shoot 1888 rockets into Israel the Israelis would not have fired back. Remember that the IDF sent messages to the Gaza civilians to get away from where the rockets were being launched. Did the Gazans not believe the messages? Were they being held there by HAMAS as HUMAN SHIELDS? We will probably never know.

You're right, we'll never know. I wouldn't be surprised if they all decided to be martyrs. Maybe some of them couldn't read. or didn't believe it.

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Point 2: about the Persians and Crusaders -- I tried to keep itin the 20th Century, but you are right this pice of land has been in contention since King Solomon.

Point 3: look at the Ottoman maps -- no where did they have a place called Palestine.

You can call it whatever you want. There were Arabs there before, during, and after the mid 600s.

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Point 4: I agree with the whole Lawrence of Arabia thing. The Brits used the local Arabs to harass the Ottomans (German Allies) and did promise them a free country as their reward -- However, being Brits, they did not mean it. LoA drank himself to death with guilt over this...

Point 5: I agree that the Brits F'ed things up in the area. The French too as they had Syria and Iraq under their thumb. However, the Jews had been settling there since the birth of Zionism in the late 19th century.

Point 6: Jewish immigration into the area. Yes the Arabs were probably in the majority in 1919 (I am not sure as the area was mostly dessert and unsettled exceptin Haifa, Jerusalem, Acre, etc). The Brits basically under pressure from Nazi Germany and being anti-semmetic hemselves took it upon themselves to limit immigration. Look up the case of the Jewish refugee ship the SS Sturma that was turned away by them.

Arabs were in the majority, and Britain limited immigration because the influx was resulting in violence.

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The Arabs that invaded in 1948 were Jordanians, Egyptians, Iraqis, Syrians and Lebonese. The local Arabs did not really do much fighting, except they did massacre a jewish village near Jerusalem.

Pretty much all of those countries (except Egypt) were created out of the same block of territory, and all after the fall of the Ottomans.

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Point 7 The Arab revolt from 1936-39 was as you said. It was the beginning of a Palestininan identity. What happened was that the Jews and Arabs (who had been living together pretty peacably) became separated as an example the building of the Jewish port in Tel-Aviv and the Jewish abandonment of the Arab port of Jaffa. In 1948 as I said before, the locals did not really do much fighting It was mostly the other Arab states (Egypt, Syria, Jordan,and Iraq) that did hte majority of fighting. Once the 1948 war was over, the parts of Palestininan land that were not controlled by Israel were occupied by either Egypt (Gaza) or Jordan (West Bank) As was said before neither of those countries gave their gains back to the Palestinians.

As you keep pointing out, there never was a Palestine, so they never had Palestinian land for Egypt or Jordan to occupy. The land seized by Israel was land that was supposed to be Palestine under the UN partition.

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Point 8: Whose land was it? As I said before most of the area was undeveloped. It had been a backwater under the Ottomans and was mostly either dessert or small villages owned by landlords in Damascus.

Who's land was it is really a moot point. Everybody's been there. The latest occupants are Jewish.

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Point 9: Israel giving them pieces of land -- that is better than no land at all. If the terrorists were not basing themselvesout of these pockets, there would be no need for a wall around them. These walls are there for the protection of Israel not to act as Berlin walls. (although the result is the same)

It is not necessarily better than no land at all. They are essentially prisons. Families are separated by the wall. Workers lost their jobs. Farmers lost their farms and pastures.

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Point 10: The appeal by Israel. I absolutely agree that the solution would be a state where religion did not matter. Where both people could live together in harmony. If you look at the Arabs who live in Israel as Israeli citizens you can see this in action. What they need to handle are the small number of extremists on both sides.

I admit I've never been to Israel. I was fortunate enough to watch a couple of independent films, one by a Palestinian filmmaker and one by an Israeli filmmaker, about Palestinian life in Israel. In an interview after the film (which was about Palestinian laborers), the Israeli filmmaker said many Israelis told him his film made them ashamed. (There's a PBS show called Independent Lens that shows foreign films. I'll try and find the name of that mopvie if you're interested).
I agree that it is a small number of extremists that cause the violence. The Palestinian laborers in that film were concerned with survival. One had a completely unreachable goal of sending his brother to school in Jerusalem. Most of them are just trying to eke out an existence.
But, it is very easy to see how one of them would say F--k the World, I'm bombing my way into heaven. I saw another documentary on PBS in which they interviewed a failed suicide bomber. They had tapes of his interrogation, and interviewed him as well. He said he had nothing in this world, and he hoped to find a better existence in heaven.

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The issue is that unless the terror attacks stop, the israelis would be suicidal to open the walls and try to integrate the Palestinians.

Israel recently built the wall. Before that, the Palestinians were ostensibly integrated. Israel survived.

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Of course with the money that HAMAS spends on weapons they could build up a decent infrastructure in GAZA and help their subjects instead of using them as propaganda...

KEEP THE POSTS COMING!

I'm not pro-Hamas. They are bastardly power mongers. Right now it is so easy for them to recruit. In general, it is always easier to appeal to a human being's baser side. But you can't get rid of them by killing them, unless you embark on genocide. You can get rid of them by improving the lives of the stock of people they pull from. If someone has something to lose, not only will they not run off and die for some amorphous cause, they will also protect what they have by turning in or attacking those terrorists who try to steal their sons and daughters.
Right now, the mentality is too ingrained. But the more progress is made in the lives of Palestinians, slowly that will change.

Botnst · #**113** 12-29-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

Again, that all depends on whose ox is being gored.

Incidentally, to the inhabitants of Tokyo (during WWII's fire bombings) that would also be a distinction without real meaning.

Again, that all depends on whose metaphor is being abused.

To the dead, nothing has meaning, thus distinctions make no difference. To the living, not being killed is usually considered a singularly positive experience.

aklim · #**114** 12-29-2008, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

It wasn't WE, who won the match. It was THEM. But, if it makes you happy, fine.

I don't think Israel can claim this kind of difference.

The Axis was defeated. How did they win?

Can you convince Hammas to not put their rocket launchers or mortars in the civilian areas?

aklim · #**115** 12-29-2008, 10:56 PM

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Originally Posted by tankdriver

Families are separated by the wall. Workers lost their jobs. Farmers lost their farms and pastures.

Israel recently built the wall. Before that, the Palestinians were ostensibly integrated. Israel survived.

Who made that wall a necessity? You keep sending bombers over, what would anyone do?

Yes they survived without the wall. What of it? IF the wall saves lives, wouldn't they feel it was justified?

Plantman · #**116** 12-29-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Thats kind of what I was thinking. I was expecting more, bombs are not cheap they need to make them count more!

Although if they are big boy's 100 tons of bombs is only 50. Thats not such a bad kill ratio, not good, but not horrible.

They aren't breaking out the big bombs, I think they are stategically trying to carve out small(relatively speaking) precise attacks and trying to hurt as little civilians as possible.

Israelis stand in front of children and protect them, those crazy mofo's use them as shields!

If Israel wanted to, they could eliminate them all rather quick. That would be foolish, but they could do it.

It's rather simplistic, but if I were Hamas, I would stop lobbying mortars into Israel, unless I wanted to die! Virgins anyone?

Get some swine blood, vaporize it and drop it by an aerosol. Then they can't get to see the virgins......

Howie posted the something along those lines, referencing a WW1 general that used that same philosophy to control radical muslims.

.03

LaRondo · #**117** 12-30-2008, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

Your ability to "figure" people out could fit in Tom Thumb's piss pot and still have room left over.

BTW, the correct word is either "appear" or "appeared."

I already mentioned a few times how much I appreciate you being my personal MSforum spellcheck.

Your lifetime is not enough to figure out yourself, Ernie.

Btw, who's Tom Thumb? Never heard of him. Must be living somewhere in your neighborhood.

LaRondo · #**118** 12-30-2008, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Can you convince Hammas to not put their rocket launchers or mortars in the civilian areas?

How much would it be worth it to you, if I did?

LaRondo · #**119** 12-30-2008, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

It's a distinction with great meaning to the millions who DID NOT get fire-bombed in other cities.

B

You know, it just becomes undeniably clear to me, with every minute, that all Good is somehow combined and located in or around the North American continent and that special part of the ME, called Israel. Nevermind the Europeans, they're just a bunch of Barbarian Whakoes anyways, but the rest of the planet for sure, is nothing but Evil.

Botnst · #**120** 12-30-2008, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

You know, it just becomes undeniably clear to me, with every minute, that all Good is somehow combined and located in or around the North American continent and that special part of the ME, called Israel. Nevermind the Europeans, they're just a bunch of Barbarian Whakoes anyways, but the rest of the planet for sure, is nothing but Evil.

Galloping goofballs!