Yes, but was Hussein irrational enough to invade his country and cause the mess that it is now?

I'd bet that there have been more Iraqis killed, both directly and indirectly (sanctions, etc) as a result of his overthrow, than he had ever killed.

We can't use the "he gassed the Kurds" argument anymore either, because now we are condoning the Turks to kill the Kurds too. Nonsense.
I hear one of the pluses to Saddam was that he made the nation secular, and we all see how much of a mess it is now that it has broken into a non-secular nation that is controlled by the majority religion.

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Dan
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It must disappoint those for whom our diplomacy consisted of eight years of bellicose ass-braying, that we are not braying like asses right now. I mean, what more would Bush have done other than his usual donkey howl? Attacking North Korea for launching a missle, something even Brazil is doing routinely at this point, seems like a rather irrational response, even for Bush, so I wonder just what it is those on the right expect Obama should be doing right now? Cartoonish "us or them" throw-the-rightwing-some-red-meat-rhetoric just isn't Obama's style.

The truth is, the only country that has any control over North Korea is China. It will take diplomacy, appeal to self-interest and reason to get the Chinese to see that Korea is a Cold War anachronism that will stand in the way of China's ascent as the pre-eminent economic power. China has total control over North Korea's economy, they supply them fuel and rice, and if they want the Koreans to behave, they simply pull the switch. China likes the idea of a bellicose Korean buffer state between it and Japan and the US forces in South Korea. If we can find some way to remove the Chinese need for this anachronism, then we can end it.

My personal opinion is that time will eventually solve this problem Red Fascist states based on the Stalin model have for the most part, in the end collapse on their own accord, and North Korea will eventually do so as well. This rocket was a cartoon show, like it's nuke, it went off with a big pfffftttt.. I see no reason for some outrageous response.

If anyone was irrational making an irrational attack on a foreign country for insane reasons, it was us, not Saddam.

This is the most valid argument against DPRK having nuclear weapons. Kim is unstable and in desperate need of foreign currency. Nuclear weapons technology would be a great way to inject capital into his government. The problem is DPRK already has nuclear weapons, even if they are of the "1 kiloton, size of a truck" variety (not your quote, B, that was ForcedInduction). What they tested was a delivery system. A delivery system we already knew they had, for several years now. A delivery system that they've tested already, to about the same level of success.

Why are we all up in arms about this now? There isn't anything new here. A nuclear-armed DPRK testing the same delivery system, using the same types of lies to cover it up. This is standard procedure for DPRK. If the world was going to act, it should have acted the moment we knew that they had the nuclear technology or the delivery system. The reality is that the world will have to get used to a nuclear armed DPRK because that ship has already sailed.

I don't know what the answer to the problem is. International sanctions will only push Kim to search for ways to make money elsewhere, which probably means nuke technology to bad guys with deep pockets. Air strikes against launch sites or nuclear facilities will undoubtedly bring consequences - I wouldn't put it past Kim to invade the South as a result - he'll call anyone's bluff because he's just crazy enough to do it. That will destabilize the entire region and send the economy into a deeper tailspin because that region of the world is the supply chain centre for high tech manufacturing. And if nuke sites are hit you can bet on an ecological disaster, because I'll bet DPRK doesn't design their sites with the same safeguards as the rest of the world.

I think the world is painted into a corner on this one.

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It's all ok. Clinton says it'll all be fixed with a UN resolution. That'll make everything just right with the world again

- Peter.

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Would you mind expanding on that point? I have pretty much the same opinion about Germany's degeneration though it's one formed from a distance. I'd be interested to hear what those with closer contact think.

- Peter.

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2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

I agree with you 100%
As I said we are in deep Kimchee. Lance, as far as it is a small yield bomb that is as big as a truck argument -- what you never heard of proof of concept builds? Sure the first bomb was a small yield but so was Trinity. How much different would building a 10KT Hiroshima bomb (which was the size of a Jeep but still leveled that city) or a 50KT or larger bomb and stuff it into the nose of this rocket? The DPRK has the technology (stolen from us back in the 1990's by China) they just have to build it.

I also agree that it is a little late to START worrying about this now. We should have been worying about this back in the 1990's The fact that Kim shined on bith Clinton and W with his promises to stop the program while we paid him his Danegeld show that he cannot be trusted. The fact that he will sell his tech and completed wepons to ANYBODY with the cash means Iran, Venezuela, HAMAS, AlQueda, The Shining Path, the narco terroristos in Colombia, The Tamil Tigers, etc, etc are potential customers.

Add in the fact that with a bomb AND a way to deliver it he can intimidate South Korea and Japan (both non-nuke nations) into doing whatever he says is scary. "Give me 100 BILLION dollars or I nuke Seoul " and "Give me 10 Trillion dollars or I nuke Tokyo" become valid scenarios.

The DPRK is a country that uses its embassies to deal drugs, float counterfit currancy, and other criminal activities. They have used submarines to kidnap young Japanese women and men to be used as templates for their spy services. This is not even a nation in the sense that Iraq under Saddam was. It is a GANGSTEROCRACY run by Don Kim the Godfather of Pyongyang... Why should we believe anything he says?

What can/should we do short of selling nukes to Japan and Korea?

As far as India and their program. India is a pretty stable democracy whohas not espoused a threat to anybody except defensivly to Pakistan. I think they and Pakistan can be trusted not to lob nukes around for the hell of it as evidenced by their pulling back form the brink a few years ago.
Of course if Pakistan disintergrates all bets their are off...

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The Turks are gassing Kurds? I didn't know.

You're right about Hussein, he was a non-sectarian, equal opportunity murderer, torturer, and maimer.

No, but it just shows that what he did to them was probably a response to the Kurds attacking in an effort to become their own state, just like Turkey is dealing with.

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Dan
2005 E320 CDI - 246k
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I dunno, I been trying to buy one of'n him for months now, figure it's only a matter of time before Obama makes 'em illegal.

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If our government treated our citizens the way they do their own, then you would have a case. For now, I see our arsenals as a means to defend a way of life that I happen to agree with and cherish. Thank you very much.

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I don't know the Iranian leaders enough to say what they would welcome. This game may be fun, but no one knows what the 'great men' on your list would do.




Hussein and Stalin were not irrational. Amin is for sure.





I said back on page 1, NK would sell technology. But they tested a missile. Going to war over that is irrational.

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Just send Neville Chamberlain to Pyongyang with a big check...

Oh, I misunderstood, thinking you were equating the intentional gassing of families and communities by Hussein with the military response of Turkey to partisan forces. Good to know we share a common understanding of the obvious difference.

Germany or Japan? Would rather continue this on PM as its off topic here.

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