A foolish statement. Your knowledge of our health care system is clearly flawed. These erroneous beliefs seem quite entrenched with a certain portion of your population. This has allowed large and profitable health care interests to equate Canadian-style health care with an attack on your freedom, which always resonates with a large portion of your population, and profit immensely in the process.

I always stay on the sideline with these discussions until invariably someone uses the "C" word and uses false information about Canadian health care to turn it into some sort of bogeyman to scare people into continuing to embrace a health care system that puts profit ahead of patient care. I'll be the first to say our system isn't perfect. It is far from perfect and it needs to be improved. But I wouldn't hesitate to choose my system over yours in a heartbeat.

__________________
Jonathan

2011 Mazda2
2000 E320 4Matic Wagon
1994 C280 (retired)

I can sympathize with how you feel. There's a tremendous amount of ignorance and misinformation out there on this topic, mostly thanks to Fox News and similar-minded talking heads. If more people traveled the world or at least saw some unbiased documentaries on this topic like Frontline, it would help us have a meaningful discussion, rather than constantly having to debunk right-wing myths and fantasies.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Yah...FOX News talking-heads and the right-wingers are the road-blocks to Nirvana-healthcare for the masses...that's another one of those ignorance/misinformation-type statements there. Everyone has a story to prove their point, either for, or against, Universal Healthcare.

How about this?

How much of your next paycheck do you want to "donate" to healthcare?

How about 10%? Or would 15% make you any healthier? How about 25%? Or won't that be enough? Hell, I'll be swimming in morphine-heaven if I could only "donate" 35% of my check to healthcare...I wouldn't be worth a lick at work, but enough morphine in me...who'd the hell care? Bzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Part of the problem is we talk about the "incidents" that occur...but the bottom line is that someone, somewhere, is going to have to pay for it...whether they use it or not.

In the up-coming legislation, are the government-employed ALSO being included in the system?

Are you going to be sitting in the waiting room, number in hand, along side your favorite Congressperson, or their immediate family members?

I highly doubt it...they can't be seen in the same room with us common folk...they're to frickin' important to be kept from their "duties" while we have to wait for our numbers to be called...

They'll get to keep their system...and we'll be paying for that, too...

We'll be kicked off onto the "O-Boat Of Floating Dreams And Promises" to end up paddling that raft out to "Nivana-Island" for a shot of reality in our butts...and we'll have to pay for the sticks and twigs to build the raft before we even get started...

Whose bucket of money are we going to start and run this program with?

Oh, right! The upper 1%ers...until someone actually runs the numbers and finds out that tax-bracket has moved to Switzerland or some off-shore moneyhaven and we'll have to start chipping away at the 99%ers...and remember...those are the folks that really work and aren't government paid or subsidized...

I guarantee you, when the system is up and running, the next 1040 will have a line that will read as such:

(1,069) If you are a government employee, skip to line 1,070. If you are (a) self-employed, (b) religious worker, (c) private-contractor, (d) regular-schmuck...take your AGI, multiply that line by 0.25, enter that amount on line 1,069 and add that amount to your total tax due.

Be careful...we are going to get what we wished for...then the bill will come due...or didn't anyone remember that part?

There are NO FREE LUNCHES...EVER!

__________________

M. G. Burg
'10 - Dakota SXT - Daily Ride / ≈ 172.5K
.'76 - 450SLC - 107.024.12 / < .89.20 K
..'77 - 280E - 123.033.12 / > 128.20 K
...'67 - El Camino - 283ci / > 207.00 K
....'75 - Yamaha - 650XS / < 21.00 K
.....'87 - G20 Sportvan / > 206.00 K
......'85 - 4WINNS 160 I.O. / 140hp
.......'74 - Honda CT70 / Real 125
.
“I didn’t really say everything I said.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~ Yogi Berra ~

Couldn't have said it any better!

A lot of people see the need for a "bad guy" to place the blame and usually health insurance gets it. Fair enough, but at least educate yourself (I mean this in a GENERAL sense, not an attack on anyone here) about the workings of the system before preaching.

mgburg: your friends are probably in the insurance biz, not HEALTH insurance biz. I base this on the advice you received. The Health Insurance industry is a lot more challenging since people's lives are at risk. That being said, if insurance companies started approving every claim that was outside of the plan coverage, they would lose billions of dollars. 90% of resubmitted claims for appeal are settled after a call to the providers, who VERY often have bad billers/coders (anyone else see those commercials on TV advertising a "great career" in billing/coding?). That is a huge expense labor-wise, and mostly infuriates the customers. Since you'd see it in the claim, blame is placed solely on the insurance company when it isn't proper (just one example). The ones submitted for appeal and denied again are most often things that are not covered by the plan. IMHO someone who pays out the butt for health insurance (and face it we all do, those who have it) should at least know exactly what they are buying. Overall profit margins are in the vicinity of <1% for many of the better HI companies.

Kuan: If you were right then I wouldn't have a job.

The whole system is inheirently flawed. I can only hope that we come to a conclusion that isn't biased by any pressure by lobbyists, nor a lack of knowledge on our politicians' part. A lot of things would work in a nice rosy perfect world but there are many hidden nuances and elements that have only partially been taken into consideration up until now. Luckily my job has mainly to do with transparency rather than any of the evils, but it has painfully made me aware of the gaps in the system as well.

Sorry for the tl;dr post

__________________
TC
Current stable:
- 2004 Mazda RALLYWANKEL
- 2007 Saturn sky redline
- 2004 Explorer...under surgery.

Past: 135i, GTI, 300E, 300SD, 300SD, Stealth

They were in both...not all, but both systems were being covered...and the stories were pretty much the same...did I see any of the paperwork? Nope. Could their stories have been a beer-induced-bit-of-bravodo "I've got one for you..." type of story? Maybe.

And maybe, things have changed a bit for the better since the early 80s...but then, again...

I'm not arguing that part...it's the stuff they are suppose to pay for, but they come back at you with "...our doctors have determined that you don't need that procedure...blah, blah, blah..." in hopes you'll give up. No doctors are seen and they wouldn't be able to pick you out of a line-up because they've never had you as a patient...you're a number on a form...

It's the stuff you are pre-qualified for, then a few months later you get the bill for the whole procedure 'cause of the imaginary doctors (see above) have determined you didn't need the procedure to begin with...that's the BS-part I've personally dealt with...

Yep, those new buildings along the interstate freeways just showed up the other day...that's probably why the highway is called a "freeway"...buildings just pop up out of nowhere and you're free to move right in and put your shingle on the side of the building facing the "freeway" - it's a wonderful plan and it works beatifully in America...

Listen, some companies are struggling...but you don't advertize on TV 'cause the air-time is just there for the taking...you don't pay your executives disportionate salaries 'cause you have a death-wish for dark alleys...you're making money and you're happy to do it...it's a dirty job...but if you aren't doing it...you'd want to be doing it...'cause you don't want someone else to do it and have all the fun...I know...I know...trite, but accurate...

BTW, how much do mothers go for on the open market right now?

__________________

M. G. Burg
'10 - Dakota SXT - Daily Ride / ≈ 172.5K
.'76 - 450SLC - 107.024.12 / < .89.20 K
..'77 - 280E - 123.033.12 / > 128.20 K
...'67 - El Camino - 283ci / > 207.00 K
....'75 - Yamaha - 650XS / < 21.00 K
.....'87 - G20 Sportvan / > 206.00 K
......'85 - 4WINNS 160 I.O. / 140hp
.......'74 - Honda CT70 / Real 125
.
“I didn’t really say everything I said.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~ Yogi Berra ~

A lot has changed since then. I have only been in the business for the past few years and even since I started, the whole mentality has changed--thankfully for the better. The smarter companies (read: those who are still surviving okay) are braced for reform and welcome it as long as everybody else is on board.

If it isn't medically necessary then insurance isn't going to cover it a lot of the time. If YOUR doctor says that its kind of "oh...well...it'll be nice" attitude then it raises some red flags on the HI end. On the other hand, this causes doctors to overdiagnose quite often in order to have their patients' treatments fully covered, further deepening the problem - and therefore causing insurers to question referrals/approvals even more. It is a problem, to say the least. Add it to the list of issues with our system today. (HI companies guilty as charged)

Sorry, I just don't get what you're saying with this one.

I'm not saying I don't like to earn money but I do think that there is a big difference between a CEO who sincerely cares about the industry he/she is in, and those out to make money. That mentality trickles down to the employees. Personally I could make more money working at another company, but I like what I do and I love the people I work with on a daily basis. As I said my job is almost 100% about transparency - helping people understand and become informed about their plans, processes, and inner workings in order to prevent future problems. We put our pants on one leg at a time like everyone else...meaning we pay for our insurance and have to submit claims, get referrals, etc. like anyone else, so we are pretty (painfully) aware of the shortcomings of the system.

__________________
TC
Current stable:
- 2004 Mazda RALLYWANKEL
- 2007 Saturn sky redline
- 2004 Explorer...under surgery.

Past: 135i, GTI, 300E, 300SD, 300SD, Stealth

You made the comment, "...Overall profit margins are in the vicinity of <1% for many of the better HI companies."

My response was a sacastic "Oh...and they go into hock to build those nice multi-story, million-dollar-monuments to themselves along the Interstate Highways...for the purpose of what? Why couldn't they have bought out some of the abandoned office buildings in towns around this country? Put our money back into the communities?

Overall Profit Margins are at 1%?

Someone reading a "cooked book" in the restroom at work?

That's the type of garbage managers tell subordinates to keep them from bugging them for pay-raises...

How many managers have been "furloughed" during the last two quarters?

How about in the past year?

I'm willing to bet that the subs are getting shorter work weeks and being asked to "tighten their belts" and the premiums keep going up when the next renewal period comes around, "...due to the economic times we are experiencing..."

And Mr. Big? Well, in that top-floor office, he keeps getting better "options" for compensation...while his salary is..."frozen" as the case may be...but his "expense" account is a bit more "open" than in the past and is, probably, a little more "flexible" in what's OK, or not OK...

And another office building is in the works...ground-breaking ceremony notices will be posted only where there are folks that have an appreciation for the finer things in life...

Hummmmmm????

__________________

M. G. Burg
'10 - Dakota SXT - Daily Ride / ≈ 172.5K
.'76 - 450SLC - 107.024.12 / < .89.20 K
..'77 - 280E - 123.033.12 / > 128.20 K
...'67 - El Camino - 283ci / > 207.00 K
....'75 - Yamaha - 650XS / < 21.00 K
.....'87 - G20 Sportvan / > 206.00 K
......'85 - 4WINNS 160 I.O. / 140hp
.......'74 - Honda CT70 / Real 125
.
“I didn’t really say everything I said.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~ Yogi Berra ~

A view from our French and Canadian friends:
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2009/07/20/healthcare-reforms-warnings-from-france-and-canada/

My restroom newspaper = access to financial records (although they might as well be the same thing these days). I can't really elaborate too much on it since most are internal but I can tell you that profit margins are very low and yes, less than 1%.

Sadly, many.

Subs are the cheapest "bail out" workers so they are doing great.

CEOs are always overpaid, if you consider the industry and market, the CEO pay is pretty much on mark. I don't like it either but that is how a corporation is run.
Ground breaking ceremonies? Please. You have an extremely idealized view of this industry if you think everything is rosy and money flowing everywhere. Many of my coworkers are working from home, as I will be in about a month. The company is closing and selling a number of buildings, trying to consolidate as many employees to as few HQs as possible. The structure I work in has been around since the 1970s (so not too old) and had thousands of employees working here. It is being shut down in January, property sold to development firms for retirement homes. Layoffs are a reality, I haven't gotten the cut but 2 of my co-workers have, and there will probably be more to come. It's not all fun and games here...

__________________
TC
Current stable:
- 2004 Mazda RALLYWANKEL
- 2007 Saturn sky redline
- 2004 Explorer...under surgery.

Past: 135i, GTI, 300E, 300SD, 300SD, Stealth

Sorry...my knowledge of our system is up close and personal...it was, both, the healthcare and insurance "system" that the "5 & 1" were showing me and if anyone thinks that healthcare, welfare, car, home, life or any other insurance company is run any different, they'd be fooling themselves...they all read from the same book, they're all cut from the same cloth and if you want even more proof of how the lemmings keep following each other around...pay close attention to what we think we're hearing from "O" and what the end result will be.

We (or at least the people we elected) are going to PATTERN our healthcare system like someone else's...we are TOO LAZY and in TOO MUCH OF A HURRY to come up with something that is fool-proof and will get everyone what they need, when they need it. Don't forget, "O" has a timetable to ram this crap through...you'd be better to take your healthcare-premium and put it all on either red or black, and that may even turn out to be a bad bet 'cause this plan that's getting rammed through Congress is bound to come up "0/00" on the table...

I'm assuming from your comments that you are with the Canadian Health Care System (CHCS)...how's that working out for you? Or...haven't you had to go through the meat-grinder yet? If not, congratulations on you, and yours, good health. I'm willing to bet that there are a few versions of bureaucratic misery that will come filtering down from the Nort' dere, eh...that will strip the skivvies off a moose...but until I've seen different and heard from better, I'm not buying into a taxpayer-subsidized system that's going to cherry-pick the best from the rest and treat them accordingly...as it is now, even Wisconsin State Employees get some BEAUTIFUL benefits that most other taxpaying, non-State-Employed workers have to pay for, but don't qualify for. Our "dinguss" Governor, "Diamond Jim" Doyle, has decided to expand healthcare, exponentially, to illegal aliens and to add adults to the child-healthcare system that was suppose to be set-up for kids under the age of 18...all for the sake of votes for him during the past few election cycles...and the State Employees, in most cases, don't have to contribute a dime towards their care...some of that may be changing...but I haven't seen it occurring as a whole-sale change...it appears to be only with "new hires" or in areas with "new job descriptions" where there's a "contributory" clause...but the unions will probably be able to wipe that off the books in short order...

We will end up with the Canadian-style, where we'll have to "take-a-number" and sit around waiting for a phone call to confirm when we can get in...if we're even eligible for the service to begin with.

If you don't think that's happening now in the States, just try to get an appointment with your current doctors down here. It's that way, right now, with the Mayo Healthcare System that I'm dealing with here.

The only way to see a doctor for something, immediately, is head for the ER, afterhours, and take a number there...

My X-MIL had to go through a similiar thing down in Central Illinois...she got moved ahead of a few people 'til they were able to determine the extent of the cancer she had...now she's been shelved and since then, it's been a waiting game...after the first round of kemo and the way it went for her, the treatment and such caused her to just say, "It's not worth the grief for a few extra months..." I don't care to go into the details, but to say there were a few eyes opened in how folks in Illinois have to deal with healthcare, that would be an understatement.

In the end, you have your system...we have our systems...and each has some good and some bad...

But, to completely toss the baby out with the bathwater is stupid...to whole-sale scrap a system and adopt another system is even more stupid.

To sit down and WORK OUT A PROPER SYSTEM THAT TREATS EVERYONE THE SAME, GIVES EVERYONE THE SAME CHANCE AND DOESN'T HAVE SOME "OMNIPOTENT DECIDER" MAKING LIFE/DEATH DECISIONS BASED ON SOME ARBITRARY THOUGHT PROCESS is going to take A LOT OF HARD AND FACT-BASED WORK.

Running some half-assed legislation through on an abbreviated time-table/time-line is stupid at least, deadlier in the long run and criminal at best.

Regardless how it's patterned and who it's patterned after...

Period.

__________________

M. G. Burg
'10 - Dakota SXT - Daily Ride / ≈ 172.5K
.'76 - 450SLC - 107.024.12 / < .89.20 K
..'77 - 280E - 123.033.12 / > 128.20 K
...'67 - El Camino - 283ci / > 207.00 K
....'75 - Yamaha - 650XS / < 21.00 K
.....'87 - G20 Sportvan / > 206.00 K
......'85 - 4WINNS 160 I.O. / 140hp
.......'74 - Honda CT70 / Real 125
.
“I didn’t really say everything I said.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~ Yogi Berra ~

Again, you display your ignorance of our system with these two quotes. I've used the system succesfully my entire life - from being born to regular checkups, childhood pnueumonia, annual physicals and full neurological screening and testing for multiple sclerosis. I have family members who have all used the system succesfully for a wide variety of care, ranging from the mundane to the catastrophic. There is no "meat-grinder". There is no "take a number and wait for a phonecall". If I want to see my doctor I call and book an appointment. If her schedule is too full to see me when I want to be seen, I go to a walk-in clinic and get treated by a doctor in the order I arrived. If I am injured I go to the hospital emergency room and yes there is a triage system that means people with worse injuries move to the front of the line, which makes sense to me. If you need treatment you get treatment, it is as simple as that. There is no claims process where someone needs to decide if your life is worth saving, or if the procedure you require is outside your level of coverage. There is no need to continually resubmit denied claims (while your health and financial situations worsen) in the hope that this will be the time you sneak the claim in past the insurance company. Our doctors and nurses are every bit as good and highly trained as yours, which is why so many of your hosptials and other healthcare services actively recruit up here for nurses and doctors.

I could honestly care less what type of health care your country opts to provide or not provide for its citizens. You have your social contract and we have ours. I just get angry when blatantly misinformed opinions, such as yours, are seen as factual representations of our health care system.

__________________
Jonathan

2011 Mazda2
2000 E320 4Matic Wagon
1994 C280 (retired)

Fine...you're one of the first that actually has an anecdotal tale to tell concerning real-first-person experiences with the Canadian system...Thank you for that...and if anyone is taking anything I say on this forum as FACT...we're in a world of hurt...just the stuff that's happened to me is fact...the rest is an OPINION...and that's it...I can be swayed...but it takes some hard evidence to do it...but you have a fairly "mild" and non-confrontational way of doing it...it just took a bit to get it out of you...

But, I do want to know...how is the system paid for? Direct taxes from your paycheck? Are government-subsidized folks required to do "co-pays" or how does that work?

It's one thing that everyone is treated the same...but somehow, we know that EVERYONE isn't contributing "their fair share" to the system...how does that work?

__________________

M. G. Burg
'10 - Dakota SXT - Daily Ride / ≈ 172.5K
.'76 - 450SLC - 107.024.12 / < .89.20 K
..'77 - 280E - 123.033.12 / > 128.20 K
...'67 - El Camino - 283ci / > 207.00 K
....'75 - Yamaha - 650XS / < 21.00 K
.....'87 - G20 Sportvan / > 206.00 K
......'85 - 4WINNS 160 I.O. / 140hp
.......'74 - Honda CT70 / Real 125
.
“I didn’t really say everything I said.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~ Yogi Berra ~

Can you tell me of any system of any kind that exists in which fairness not only exists, but everyone thinks that is so? Even democracy is not fair. Certainly our current health care system is not fair. Fairness isn't possible in it.


As long as a civilized society has people in it with differing amounts of money, fairness is inapplicable. Members of that society make a judgment of what standards exist in living in that society. Society makes that judgment as a whole. Like child labor.

Unless you advocate communism, you are agreeing to participate in a society that would rather be unfair than to fetter the human spirit. There are going to be things that benefit some and things that hurt some.

__________________
1984 300TD

If you're proposing something to replace another item...the least I'd expect from the the proponent is the fact that all in inequities of the old system should be brought down, leveled out and we all start from square one with a level playing field...

That's not happening here...

The person NOT IN GOVERNMENT, but is paying the government (taxes) is the one expected to pay for the new system...and the old system of the Government's Healthcare...and the military's too (you don't expect our military to be part of this "new" system do you?)...

So, what's "fair" there? The Government is the 3rd tier no one is talking about...or including...the way they're set up, they don't need to worry about copays or the like...it's in their contracts and union deals...the military...that's a 4th tier...

What I'm tired of hearing about is the Government saying "Do as I say, but not as I do."

When do WE get the brass-balls back and let our Government know that WE are their bosses...not the other way around...

The closest I've seen that happen is when Reagan fired the Air-traffic controllers...

Many lawyers got rich on that, but the end result was the American Public spoke and it happened...

We're too tongue-tied to do that now...and I believe that may be our undoing as a Republic...

__________________

M. G. Burg
'10 - Dakota SXT - Daily Ride / ≈ 172.5K
.'76 - 450SLC - 107.024.12 / < .89.20 K
..'77 - 280E - 123.033.12 / > 128.20 K
...'67 - El Camino - 283ci / > 207.00 K
....'75 - Yamaha - 650XS / < 21.00 K
.....'87 - G20 Sportvan / > 206.00 K
......'85 - 4WINNS 160 I.O. / 140hp
.......'74 - Honda CT70 / Real 125
.
“I didn’t really say everything I said.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~ Yogi Berra ~

Now who's being unfair? You have inequities in the current system and you're fine with that, but in a new system there can be no inequities? If the least you expect is utopia, how can you possibly think what we've got is good enough? Never mind the fact that it's impossible to please everyone, but we're not pleasing many people now.

Every person who pays taxes pays for what the government does. Not every person can be in the government. I fail to see a problem here. The alternative is anarchy.
I expect if there is a new system it will apply to everyone, military or not.

Details. The devil's in them and they're important. But they can be hashed out, traded upon, compromised on, eliminated, or accepted.

Not the portion of the public who were air traffic controllers. Certainly wasn't fair to them. They spoke and got stomped on by the government.

As far as letting the government know who the bosses are, the people let the Rep Congress know how they felt. They let John McCain and Barack Obama know how they felt.
If you want an active citizenry taking part in its governance, I am right beside you. But let's not pretend that the government is somehow absconding with the public's control of it. People still exert their will, but the fact that they don't routinely exert it is their problem, independent of government action.

__________________
1984 300TD