If Your Gonna Have An Argument In The Cockpit Put The Plane on Auto Pilot
 

these guys are in BIGGGGGG trouble....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33436497/ns/us_news-life/

Doesn't add up.

If you're in an "argument", you still hear the radio................


My bet: They both fell asleep..........

Brian- So at what altitude do you think the alarm went off?

Same thing happened here, pilot and co-pilot on an interisland fell asleep and overshot Hilo airport with passengers wondering why the plane wasn't descending when over the island.

Meh, sometimes you make mistakes. That flat pattern looks like something I would do, maybe thats why I'm not a pilot.:D

From what I gathered, they were steady at altitude..............who knows what finally woke them...........maybe the flight attendant...........:eek:

Maybe the flight attendant's should carry air horns for this.:D

Oh man, doesn't look good if that's the case. Do they record every minute of speech in the cockpit? If so, this story about arguing about airline policy is going to fall flat if not true.

Cockpit voice recorder is on a re-recording loop, so they're not going to get much of the "heated debate" but they might get the "Okay, here's our story . . ." part, unless they did everything with hand signals and writing it down.

heard on the news tonight that that particular plane had the old style recorder that records in 30 minute loops ,so they might just luck out and get out of it.

They do............IIRC it's the last 60 minutes............the tape runs in a loop.

Yep, if it's 30 minutes, they took at least 30 minutes to bring it down after they woke up.

Nobody can prove anything............thankfully for them.

Oh, I think getting into a "heated debate" and neglecting flight plans and ATC calls is going to be a trip to the woodshed that even their union is going to have a hard time saving their jobs.

No doubt..........but, they probably won't be fired because of it.

Actually, the worst punishment would be reassignment to some crappy, out of the way short haul routes. Can you say "landing cycles?"

New recorders retain as much as two hours of cockpit conversation and other noise, but the older model aboard Northwest's Flight 188 includes just the last 30 minutes — only the very end of Wednesday night's flight after the pilots realized their error over Wisconsin and were heading back to Minneapolis.

Bull FAWKING ****. They best hope that the union will jump in to save their sorry butts.

150 miles past their Minneapolis destination and military jets scrambled to chase them.

After that? I don't know about you but I wouldn't hire them for anything in the airplane except vacuum detail.

They are unionized. Doubtful they could get fired even if they killed a couple of passengers. They should be. I sure as hell won't want to fly on a flight if I know they are behind the wheel.

You'd be mistaken. They've been fired before for similar activities. The NWA team that was drinking the night before the flight was fired.

IIRC, the SWA pilot that overran the runway at Burbank was fired.

The company just fires them............the union is left to attempt to reinstate them............it usually doesn't go well. In reality, this union won't attempt to coverup behavior that they agree is not professional.

Hilo to Maui............:D

But I thought the alcohol tests came back negative? In which case, it won't parallel the other case you mentioned.

Based on what I have seen some unions do, I doubt they won't try. I know a co-worker of the wife was fired for some missing narcotics. He confessed to forging a signature of another RN. Union fought for reinstatement and got it. Adopted father who was, is and probably will be a union man is also disgusted at some of the things the union fights for.

Hilo to Kona

ALPA is not the traditional union that you're typically quoting ad-nauseum.

If there is a lack of professionalism that jeopardizes the safety of the flight, and there isn't a solid defense, the union won't typically fight to keep those member's jobs.

Well, obviously we haven't seen every union in existence. My opinion of what will happen is based on the extrapolation of what I have seen unions do. I still stand by my belief that they will be reinstated.

Without a cockpit voice recorder, I'm in agreement...........not enough evidence to "convict".

However, it won't necessarily be the union forcing the issue. The company will probably defer.

Shows how the bottom of the barrel work for these little connector flights...

A little disheartening to know they're getting paid so poorly.

Largest connection carrier, "Express" or regional affiliate airlines starting gross monthly pay:

~ American Eagle $1,725 ~ Comair - $1,72 ~ Chautauqua - $1,650 ~ Mesa - $1,596 ~ Mesaba - $1,800 ~ Pinnacle $1,575 ~ Skywest $1,425 ~ Trans States $1,628

...........ahh..........it was a Northwest A-320.

Not to mention see the GPS map move right onto your pre-programmed destination and beyond... The flight clock... The FMS... (the list goes on)

I’m thinking they snoozed as well.

All I know for sure is that when I heard this story on the morning news.
I almost ruptured something, I laughed so hard.

Think they keep their jobs...........??:confused:

Seeing as how many people are out of work today, employers should be spoiled for choice. Should they? No. 150 miles off is a lot of miles off. I don't care of they were sleeping, jerking each other off or talking about airline policy. Bottom line is they were too far off for an "oops". Either they were incapable or incompetent. With a union in place, I suspect they will have their wrists slapped and then keep their jobs.

The question wasn't directed to you. You have already weighed in on the matter...........and repetition won't make your case any stronger.

So sorry, almighty one. I failed to see that. :rolleyes: Thought I'd add a reason for why I felt that they should be dismissed when I thought of it. I didn't realize we could only answer once.

I doubt it.
They certainly shouldn’t.
But who knows how this thing will unfold.

If anyone (airline, FAA, press…) buys the argument story. They should be grounded and on the streets for being so ignorant as to ignore where they were. And I don’t just mean where they were over the ground.

If it comes out that they admit they fell asleep. Then they should be grounded and on the streets for making up the BS argument story in the first place.

Their best bet would have been to admit to (or even make up that they did) falling asleep and subjecting the whole incident for pilot fatigue studies.
Making up a story about an argument, much less actually having one that took you so far off your responsibilities, are both grounds for dismissal in my book.

I just can not grasp that they missed their destination due to a heated debate over airline policy. Or anything for that matter. Talk about total complacency.
Even if you’re having a knock-down drag-out over it, you’re still awake and conscious of the fact that you are in charge of where you are and what you need to do. Sorry - I’m not buying the argument story.

If I had to bet, I’d for sure go with they fell asleep.
CVR might help solve it. Might not.
I’ve sat in a few FAA/Pilot “interrogations”. They can get pretty nasty.
I think one of these guys (probably the right seat.) will crack and admit they both fell asleep. At least I hope so.

If you were at a small table by the door of a quaint little restaurant, having the most heated debate with your worst enemy over anything. You’d still know where you were and what was around you. If not…Yikes. Hope you’re not a pilot.

You can answer anytime you want...........as many times as you want.

However, your position is pretty obvious and based on an underlying distaste for any union behavior.

I asked the pilot for a reason..........he's actually in that industry...........we're not.

I'd imagine if they were asleep they'd wake up when their low fuel alarm went off. :eek:

If you're awake. Then 2 miles, is 2 miles too far off for an "oops".
No excuse if you're awake.

Since these guys are not completely stupid, they must have known that the CVR would have erased the period in question.

My real question is whether they managed to concoct their story during the last 45 minutes of the flight..........and that would be the kiss of death for them if the tape is played.

However, if they sat there completely mum about the incident..........for the entire return ride back to Minneapolis...........when did they have the time to concoct their "argument" story?

This drama becomes more interesting by the minute...............

When I get puked on by a baby in a blue suit, I avoid babies in blue suits. When I stop seeing unions protecting the incompetent and those that deserve to be fired, I will have a better opinion of them. So far, the number of union stewards that I have seen that refuse to help someone that richly deserves the punishment he/she gets is about 3. Most of them are the other way. What do you expect me to think? That the next union I run into will be #4?

It was an observation............not an accusation.

Yep.

It could very well have taken something like that.

I’ve had plenty of days where I had far more radio communications than face to face communications.

Sometimes you can get to where you can hear it in your sleep.

And no, it doesn’t wake you up.

If they knew what type of CVR they were up against. They could have bet their necks on the thing not providing their “kiss of death”.
If not. They could have used note pads or simply leaned over and whispered to each other.
It will be interesting to hear what they had to say (on the CVR) either way.
I’d think that one of them would mention missing it by 150 miles even in the last 30/45 minutes of the flight.

My money is on “Nap time !!”.
Keep in mind that someone was trying to raise them far before they started their overshoot. Even in a heated debate, one of them would have heard something that would have snapped them out of it. But not a deep snooze.

“Since these guys are not completely stupid…”
That’s an odd statement from someone who feels most everyone is a moron.;)
And don’t bet any money on them not being completely stupid either. :D

You might be right...........maybe they'll bury themselves..............thereby refuting my original premise and supporting my general position about most people.

I think I'll pass on the bet............

Smart move. :D

Damn, boys !!

Shelby just landed back from NOLA and flames came out of her right main !! :eek:

That aint good.

Standby – While I radio her to our place and check this out.

1 obvious omission in your thought process. You are behind the computer thinking about all of these ideas AFTER the fact. They are doing it DURING the fact. You wake up and see a military jet beside or behind you. You are scrambling to find out where you are at so you take the appropriate response. Then you probably have to talk to the control tower who will be asking questions. You are also wondering what you will be up against when the plane lands. If that isn't enough, you have the small matter of the jet you were supposed to be flying and the 100+ irate passengers. It might be difficult for them to think rationally about how to kill some time so the CVR wipes out what they have spoken or their snoring in the past hour. With all that is going on, do you think it will be easy to remember how long the CVR takes recordings? Are you sure it is 30 mins? Perhaps it is 1 hr? Or was it 2 hrs?

All true............however, because they put forth a story about an "argument", one might conclude that they covered the base regarding the CVR.

This would be the "not completely stupid" approach that I took originally.

You missed the part that John mentioned regarding my likely erroneous assumption.

She landed and is probably safe. Plane is insured and probably is easier to fix than her body. 2 things come to mind. "Take off is optional. Landing is MANDATORY" and "Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing".

BTW. Right main what? I thought the plane has 2 engines? Is there a main engine and not so main on the right side? :confused::confused:

Right main landing gear.

Well boys... (he says holding back a chuckle.)

It would appear that upon landing (or perhaps just prior to lift off from MSY, but I’d bet it was here), she tagged an opossum with the nose. A chunk of the unfortunate creature went slamming into the right main brake assembly (and stuck). Upon activation of the brakes, said chunk appears to have become cooked.

Correction: Make that over cooked. Waaay over cooked.

All looks to have made it through without any collateral damage.
We’ll go drive the runway in the morning.

As the late Mr. Rogers would have put it: Can you say “Pressure Washer” boys and girls?

Shelby’s comments: EEEW !! NASTY !! Is that fur !?!? EEEW !!, and so on.

I love this thing they call aviation. Never a dull moment.

Off to help with the push-back and clean up. Who the heck let the kids go to a sleep-over?! Isn't clean-up their job ? :D

Maybe it won't be so nasty if she added seasoning first? A little A-1 maybe?

I saw one of the pilots on the tube tonight. He was emphatically denying that there was an argument going on, just a discussion.

Sort of a weak and waggle-headed looking guy.

Aw, here's the exact footage I saw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUDHVtEJAAs