EPA takes risky step to increase ethanol blend

[HuskyMan]

just curious, anyone have any ideas on how this might affect older benz gassers?

http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/ngreene/epa_takes_risky_step_to_increa.html

[TOPGUN]

It's not going to have a good ending for older vehicles.

[Rahulio1989300E]

Make sure you all pay attention at the pump, get E10 or pure gas. I would personally avoid E15 blends for my own cars.

E15 is supposed to be optional for everyone, it is to be sold alongside E10...

[Chas H]

I'm not sure how this will be implimented, if at all. There's no way the EPA can force all fuel to be E85. That means stations will need to emplace additional tanks and pumps and that simply is not possible for many gas stations.

[mgburg]

This is another attempt to remove older vehicles from the roadways. Unless you have the money and knowledge to modify your older vehicle in order to run this crap through its piping, you're reduced to finding places that will sell 10% or less gas.

We aren't Europe, China, or Russia. We need to see who votes for this crap, or endorses it, then vote them out of office...or vote out of office those that push these people to come up with these rules.

[compress ignite]

See Above.

[The Clk Man]

I'd rather eat corn than put it in my Benz.

[Hatterasguy]

Ethanol is one of the biggest scams ever forced on the American people. What a load of crap.

[gregs210]

Originally Posted by Chas H

I'm not sure how this will be implimented, if at all. There's no way the EPA can force all fuel to be E85. That means stations will need to emplace additional tanks and pumps and that simply is not possible for many gas stations.

Not possible?

Many thought it was "not possible" to force stations to provide unleaded fuel.

The small independent stations in California blanch every time CARB opens its maw. Vapor recovery systems originated in CA and closed many independents. Then they changed the standards for recovery systems and forced the closure of more, simply because they coudn't afford to refit their stations again.

We may elect the people in congress, but they delegate their power through committees and establish federal agencies (like the EPA) to determine what is possible...whether it really is or not.

No, this is not Europe...yet. But it seems every generation here moves closer to a socialistic democracy in which the politicians simply decide what is good for us (and without any pretense of being our "representatives"). Someday in the not-too-distant future, if you want to drive a "classic" you'll probably have to live in a major metro area even to find a station that still sells "plain gas", and you can believe there will be a significant levy on it as well, and it's likely you'll also have to pay a hefty "carbon tax" in order just to own it. That assumes, of course, that they don't simply outlaw the use of conventional gasoline engines.

We may be facing a new world, but with all due respect to Mr. Huxley, I'm not sure how brave it will be.

[Chas H]

Originally Posted by gregs210

Not possible?

Many thought it was "not possible" to force stations to provide unleaded fuel.

Yup, not possible. When lead free gas became mandated, the repair shop I worked for quit selling gas because they had no room to install additional tanks. Or do you think some sort of emminent domain might apply?

[retmil46]

Originally Posted by gregs210

Not possible?

Many thought it was "not possible" to force stations to provide unleaded fuel.

Someday in the not-too-distant future, if you want to drive a "classic" you'll probably have to live in a major metro area even to find a station that still sells "plain gas", and you can believe there will be a significant levy on it as well, and it's likely you'll also have to pay a hefty "carbon tax" in order just to own it. That assumes, of course, that they don't simply outlaw the use of conventional gasoline engines.

Indeed. My first 2 or 3 years in the Navy, I stuck with driving my old 65 Mustang, as unleaded fuel still wasn't all that common in the areas I had to travel. Even when I bought my first new car, a 79 Mustang, I remember checking the station signs for "unleaded" before pulling into one for fuel.

Besides ethanol, there's the engine oil specs as well - SM rating that came out in 2003, and the CJ-4 spec for diesels in 2007. Both specs did the same thing - drastically lowered the amount of ZDDP, or zinc and phosphorous, in the oil - and for the same reason - to allow the use of emissions hardware mandated by the EPA.

For gas vehicles, the EPA mandated a major increase in the service life of catalytic converters. Since the zinc and phosphorous in the blow-by oil that gets sucked into the intake and burnt in the engine was one of the main causes of cats eventually "plugging up", the easiest thing for the OEM's and oil industry to do was simply come up with the SM spec that removed most of the zinc and phosphorous from the oil.

ZDDP has been used for decades as a hardening agent and film lubricant for high load areas in an engine - ie, keeping the chrome from wearing off your camshaft. If you have a newer type engine with roller lifters, not too big of a deal. But if you have an older "classic" with a flat tappet engine, you'd eventually end up trashing the engine if you don't have sufficient levels of ZDDP in the oil to protect these high load areas.

Same with the CJ-4 diesel spec. The levels of ZDDP were significantly lowered to allow the use of particulate filters (DPF's) in the exhaust on 2007 and newer diesels. Even the description of the spec on the API's website lists the primary function of CJ-4 as being "protecting the emissions hardware on 2007 and newer diesel vehicles". Yeah, screw the engine, gotta protect that particulate filter.

We've even ran into this situation at work. Since 1986 they've been using Mobilgard 450 oil in the 4500 HP dual fuel generator they have. Unbeknownst to them, over the years Mobil changed the oil to a "zinc free" low ash "railroad engine" formulation - which the tech manual specifically states you are NOT to use a zinc free oil in this engine, and specifies minimum levels of zinc/phosphorous/sulfated ash needed in the oil. A couple months back the engine suffered a geartrain casualty which has entailed a nearly complete rebuild of the engine. The managers and owners of the engine (UTSA) were quite surprised and rather embarrassed, to be told by the company contracted to rebuild the engine, that they'd been using the wrong engine oil for nearly 15 years (ie, since Mobil changed the formulation)!!! And I got a major "I told you so" because I had pointed this out and questioned the use of this type oil well over a year ago.

When the district manager called up Mobil and tried to get specs on what was in the oil and which type to use, he ended up getting the runaround, told that was "proprietary" information. We ended up going with the contractor's recommendation as to which type oil to use.

End result, in addition to having to do a complete geartrain replacement, they're going to have to replace ALL of the crankshaft and conn rod bearings as they're worn down to minimum spec. My bet is they're going to have to pull the pistons as well and replace the rings, liners, etc - in other words, a complete overhaul and upgrade. UTSA is already making noise they want to talk to the contractor about doing an overhaul and upgrade, since the deeper they dig into the engine, the more items they find that need to be corrected, and we've already got it torn apart to this extent - if for no other reason, to help comply with future emissions regulations. Guess the campus police better get hot and start handing out a bunch more $100 parking tickets.

[Txjake]

x1k cubed

[aklim]

Originally Posted by Txjake

x1k cubed

X1K ^ 4

[Pooka]

The Marvel M. Oil is a good light lube for sewing machines and other precision machinery of that type.

[Pooka]

I think this is just something to take the stress off of pipeline companies that market blended gasoline.

It works like this....

A tanker pulls up to the loading rack and punches in his order. After grounding the tanker he fills the compartments just like you would fill your tank. The E is added in at the terminal and sloshes around in the tank on the way to the retail gas pump. By the time it gets there it is mixed to a blend of E 10.

Or at least it had better be. If the delivery driver runs a little too much E and winds up with a blend of E 11 or E 12 there can be a serious fine to pay, so some drivers cut the blend to E 8 or so just in case there is a bit of overrun when loading the E.

E 15 is allowed, but there is no law it must be provided like there was with unleaded gas.

This will take a lot of stress off of everyone concerned with retailing gasoline and I don't think there will be a big rush to provide E 15 unless it is a smog area like LA or Houston.

This finding will also allow the EPA to spend less on enforcement of the E 10 rule.

I don't think any pipeline company is going to rush out and build new tanks to put this into effect. I remember when unleaded gas was introduced in the mid 70's. We spent millions upon millions to make this work and so did all the other oil companies. No one wants to do that again.

And... Unleaded gas was a Nixon/Ford thing, so please don't go into any anti-lib rants over something Republicans did 35 years ago.