Looks like we're educating eachother. I didn't realize they were budging on anything based on how they were acting. Like I said, its a tradeoff. Federal workers have better salaries and benefits but they are much better educated. I don't know how it is with state and other public officials, but I imagine its similar.

http://factcheck.org/Images/image/Fe...ic%20final.jpg

That is absolutely true. The administrators at my wife's school have no problem at all getting rid of teachers who oppose the administrator's inane policies but don't have the will to jump through the hoops necessary to get rid of bad teachers.
At my wife's school they just instituted a new yearly evaluation. The first half of the classroom evaluation portion was released recently. It is 28 pages long, filled with small print questions and will require 3 full days of orientation for all district teachers and administrators in order to understand what the form means. All of this because of the myth which pervades our culture that uniform educational results can be achieved with equal effort across all socio-economic classes and if it does not happen, the cause is bad teaching.

I could be wrong but I believe public UNIONS in Ohio and Indiana may have recently made concessions as well.

Here in Illinois are Pols have already said they plan to work things out COLLECTIVELY with the Labor Unions and have no plans to deal with it like in Wisconsin.

Getting a little old hearing the UNIONS are not willing to make concessions when I haven't heard of some public employee Union NOT making concessions.

The sticking point with the UNIONS in wis. is they are not willing to give up their collective bargaining rights. The Gov. says it's a cost issue but the Unions gave him ALL WAGE AND BENEFIT concessions he asked for.

The contention is if they have collective bargaining rights some day they will strike to regain what they conceded. Now I've lived in Illinois which is a strong Union state and lived through both Dem. and Rep. govoners and I don't ever remember ther being a public employee strike, but I'm sure some where along the line there was. Problem I have with that is the people who don't know better think it's the UNions first line of defense when really it's a LAST RESORT measure.

Our firefighters just last year settled on a contract that took THREE YEARS to settle because they are not allowed to strike, no problem there. Only problem was the uproar of SOME of the people when they had to have their raises paid retroactively, so I guess they thought it was ok to work three years with no raises but when the arbitraters settled the contract some off the public couldn't believe they had to recieve their back pay. Pay me now, or pay me later.

Exactly right. One outcome of that foolishness is reliance on tests as an indication of subject matter proficiency. Stupid. Near worship of so-called "objective tests" means that we reduce knowledge to multiple choice selection -- as though anything in life is so easily categorized. Etc,.

This country is going mad for testing students. As though knowledge were the same as cognition and wisdom.

Does anybody really think that tests and 6 week grades inform us of anything significant about the student?

well I have been given two infractions for trolling.

And was told they were contemplating whether I should be here or not.

Just because a mod does not understand what I am saying.

Trust me you will understand my posts by tomorrow.

I simply cannot give you more information now....

Here is a hint...

http://twitter.com/anonsdg/status/41981468393750528#

Anonymous currently taking down Koch websites (twitter.com)
submitted 5 hours ago by SomeKindOfDeveloper

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The infractions levied against RichC was not an arbitrary decision, and had nothing to do with the topic at hand. You are misinforming forum members about a mod decision, even though I laid out very politely why you got the infractions and that I didn't come to this decision alone.

2. Trolling is not permitted. Trolling is defined as an inflammatory post used strictly for the purpose of irritating other members. The moderator of the respective forum will have the final determination of whether trolling was utilized for a specific post.

Also:

13. Subversion or disruption of the normal flow and/or display of the Shop Forum is forbidden. This includes, but is not limited to, wholesale deletion of prior posts and posting a new thread for the express purpose of criticism of a moderator's decision.

An explanation for the next infraction.

Yes.

- Peter.

I hate it when I know somebody for awhile, but you later find out they appear to be a total nut job. :silly:
Disappointing.......

I'm not advocating more testing of students or teachers...just remove some of the administrative drivel that insulates the principal from the students. Get rid of the unfunded tree-hugging mandates and extracuricular BS that passes as knowledge and education and get right back to the basics...the very stuff that drove us all nuts when we had to learn it...Reading (and COMPREHENSION), Writing (being able to form an understandable sentence without slang and jive), Arithmetic (being able to make simple change without the "I'm hoping that's enough for you" look in their eyes as they hope against all hope they'll be able to make it through orientation at MickeyDs') and last, but not least, Science (Man did land on the moon...and it wasn't Luke Skywalker that got there first.).

As for the in-bred neanderthals that think calling blacks "ni**ers" - whites "kr*ckers" - Indians (Native) "drum-beaters" or "scalpers" - Asians "Slant*y*s" or "y***ow" - or the muriad of other cretinous phrases...pull 'em out of the classes they've been coddled in and send them to the schools in those neighborhoods...put 'em in classes where they are the minority, or do a "kid-swap" with like-minded kids from the "other side of the tracks" and see if a few eyes can be opened.

And if the kids suddenly decide they can run the school grounds 'cause mommy and daddy know "so-and-so" or they believe their family's "Perry Mason" will come to their rescue, get the laws changed that the schools and the kids that WANT TO LEARN don't have to put up with spoiled brats...one strike, the cretin is out and off to some dog-forsaken military-style boot camp. 3 hots and a cot with some exercise to burn off that pre-pubescent, know-it-all energy. Girls as well as boys. Isolated from one another, of course.

Teachers shouldn't have to be looking over their shoulders all during the day.

But the BOTTOM LINE is not just the teachers, but EVERYTHING, EVERYONE in the Government sector has to realize the balance of the economy CAN NOT SUPPORT THE LOADS THAT ARE BEFORE THE TAXPAYERS RIGHT NOW.

None of this was a surprise. It just became a game between the Democrats and the Republicans to see who would blink first.

The problem came to a boil when the Tea Party said "You're both going out with the bath water and so is the over-paid, over-pampered baby you've been giving too much attention to!"

Unions, on both sides, have been only interested in THEIR welfare...not the welfare of the hand that's been feeding it, watering it and generally, been doing tricks like rolling over and playing "dead" for it.

When I retire (somewhere around age 87 by the way my 401(k) looks...), I'll have to take over the MONTHLY payments of my healthcare insurance 100%...provided that my company will still be in existance. State-Union Employees have told me they don't have to contribute a dime when they retire. If COLLECTIVE BARGAINING got them that benefit, not only was it wrong for the taxpayer to have to foot that bill, but even morally it's wrong. It's a 100% free ride on the backs of those that have been working all their lives to only end up carrying someone, not even known to them, on their backs as well.

How many generations ahead of us right now are we willing to put to the stone just because we can't balance our own budgets right now? Whose kids are we going to "enslave" for the sake of some tax money we won't have if this slide into hell isn't stopped...COLD TURKEY?

And if you want to make it fair, then start with the last program that's supposedly earned a few seconds on the hind teat of the Governmental Sow, and throw it out. Then go for the next to the last and keep moving back until the budget starts balancing out...do it all levels...Local, State and Federal...everywhere and everything.

We didn't become the United States by bringing everything England/Old World over to these shores...we took what was good and honest and wrote up documents to be sure we'd stay that way and not to degenerate back into what we escaped from.

Now, we have individuals in our upper Government that say we should be greatful and fearful of all things 3rd world and worst. We should be overly generous with our earnings and blessings and give freely to anyone that wants, but doesn't have the will to earn it themselves...let alone appreciate any of it they do get. AAMOF, those that don't earn it are turning out to be the loudest and rudest of all out there. And that's the type of person that boils the bile in those that know and appreciate the value of dollar and what that dollar represents. They'll never know that feeling because, like their elders around them, they've become accustomed to getting something for nothing and sitting around listening to stories about how, many years before they were born, big bad people took things that didn't belong to them...so anyone that is making money must be descendents of those evil folks.

Class warfare.

Well, we've come to fight...or better yet, we'll leave those folks to wallow in their own filth.

Again, if there's no one left to honor the paycheck, who'll cash it if there's no taxpayers around to pay the bill?

Isn't this situation exactly what one would expect from the sort of top-down administration we now have? Some administrators of federal programs in DC decides what is best for all students and then all school systems have to comply. Has education improved since the institution of a federally run Dept of Education, or have we simply added a layer of bureaucracy, and cost?

The causes of educational problems in Boston are probably not the same causes as problems in Fort Wayne, as Seattle, as Dallas, etc. This is the fallacy of the US Department of Education -- a federal solution will fix all things. Often it 'fixes' things that weren't broken in one locality while burdening that locality with more bureaucratic oversight -- paperwork. I have yet to hear of a teacher or administrator that thought the US Department fo Education didn't require enough paperwork.

I completely agree with the criticism of local administrators of local school systems. In my area we have a legacy of cronyism. The only cure for that is a more demanding electorate.

Finally, in my area we lose a very large proportion of new teachers every year. They are stunned by the bureaucracy and demands on their time. They deluded themselves into thinking they could do an adequate job of teaching by showing up 8 - 3. My wife, a 20-year veteran of public school teaching, starts at 7:15 and leaves at 4:00. She often works a few hours on weekends in prep for the coming week. She buys lots of supplies for students whose parents can't or wont pay for the children's supplies.

The worst thing is: The teachers in this district teach to the standardized tests. the children are burdened with having to know things. Lots of things. Things you can learn from Google or Wikipaedia. But wait, they HAVE google and Wikipaedia. So we're teaching kids to be a pale imitation of a search engine. Brilliant.

Bot,
ditto, and
We fail to teach critical thinking. We therefore end up with a generation or more that know no facts, and can't analyze those facts they might have.
Perfect sceario for an all-caring State to promise help and comfort. All they want in exchange is your liberty, and since you have not appreciated it, you won't even miss it, at all. So LOOK over here at the circus of the evil Koch Bros, but not over there where your freedom is degraded.

A parent, this past Saturday, related how a discussion went with his daughter (I think he said she was 15) about her own homework...She got the assignment finished just using Wikipedia...no other source...no cross-checking any information, no "critical thinking" (as you stated MS Fowler), just TYPE, CUT, PASTE, REGURGITATE.

Here's the gist of the conversation:

DAD: "How's the homework coming?"
DAUGHTER: "Finished it."
DAD: "Already?"
DAUGHTER: "Yep."
DAD: "Well, what did you think about the subject? Are you for or against the Bill?" (Obvious topic up here...go figure...the schools are asking the kids to write down what they feel about the budget bill...maybe setting up a "blacklist" of some sort...eh? This is my thought, not his...BTW, he's a union-worker with an electrical outfit...)
DAUGHTER: "Whatever."
DAD: "Waddayoumean Whatever? What did you write about? Anything?"
DAUGHTER: "Yah. I wrote some stuff."
DAD: "And....?"
DAUGHTER: "Dad! I did the homework! Just leave it be! OK?"
DAD: "Whatever..."

He mentioned later that his daughter came in on the side of the State Union workers, but only because she THINKS that's the only way she'll be excepted in the classroom with the teachers. So, at least, she has some survival instincts intact...yet. The critical thinking part? Works hand-in-hand with the survival part.

As for being able to express it? Once (if ever) she's on her own, maybe...then it looks like it's a single shot at life.

After that?

Bottle, pills and handouts...she'll be just another wounded gazelle on the plain of life...'til she's eaten alive.

You seem to have a very jaded, negative view of things.