Vicious attack on the name of Christians in Norway - Page 11 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

tonkovich · #**151** 08-02-2011, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junqueyardjim

Jorn, that is what you get with those State supported churches that Europe is famous for and the reason many of our Grand Parents left the Netherlands, Ireland, England, Norway, Germany, Poland, and many other countries. When the State through taxation supports your denomination, you are living in a dead church. Bibically speaking can be no such thing as a State supported Church, and that is another big difference with Islam, because Islam seeks to be state and religion.

i thought this was a christian nation? at least acording to palin, bachmann, falwell, gingrich etc.

semantics wont get you out of this one. (nor will jesus

)

cmac2012 · #**152** 08-03-2011, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

The belief, as I understand your position, is that the sheer number of conflicts is the penultimate measure, as opposed to a few strategic ones? Mere numerical superiority, versus the actual effect? Interesting.

We will never know what the effect would have been had the US and UK not subverted the Iranian elections, but to a very great effect, we do know that the rise of fundamentalism was in great part the reaction to the western support of the Shah.

Amazing how such an event will reverberate through the decades. No way to un-ring that bell.

cmac2012 · #**153** 08-03-2011, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjh

MTI,

I just said democracies fight each other less.

That's a little bit like saying that civilized people behave with more civility. I'm thinking that a certain amount of maturity of culture is needed for democracy that actually works.

Plenty of 3rd world nations that supposedly have democratic elections are far from the real thing. Spurring such a leap in group wisdom is the tricky part.

MS Fowler · #**154** 08-03-2011, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

Breivik, who systematically shot more than 60 fellow Norwegians with “a smile on his face,” as survivors from Utoya island described, says he is “100 percent Christian.” His use of the term is not based on faith but out of collective identification with a notion of “Christian Europe.”

"Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I'm not an excessively religious man," he says in his 1,500-page manifesto. "I am first and foremost a man of logic. However, I am a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe."

Breivik’s video, in which he blames “cultural Marxists” for supporting a multicultural Europe, is replete with imagery of various sword-wielding and carnage-provoking crusaders and defenders, many of whom sport crosses.

Was Breivik a Christian Terrorist?

No, he is not a Christian terrorist. There are quotes in his manifesto that he specifically did not want Christians in his group. The following excerpt from Ann Coulter's column explains it well. Or you could ignore it since its from AC.

Q: Do I have to believe in God or Jesus in order to become a Justiciar Knight?

A: As this is a cultural war, our definition of being a Christian does not necessarily constitute that you are required to have a personal relationship with God or Jesus.

He goes on to say that a "Christian fundamentalist theocracy" is "everything we DO NOT want," and a "secular European society" is "what we DO want."

"It is enough," Breivik says, "that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian-atheist." That statement doesn't even make sense in America.

At the one and only meeting of Breivik's "Knights Templar" in London in 2002, there were nine attendees, three of whom he describes as "Christian atheists" and one as a "Christian agnostic." (Another dozen people mistook it for a Renaissance Faire and were turned away.)

Breivik clearly explains that his "Knights Templar" is "not a religious organization but rather a Christian 'culturalist' military order." He even calls on the "European Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu community" to join his fight against "the Islamization of Europe."

He doesn't believe in Christianity or want anyone else to, but apparently supports celebrating Christmas simply to annoy Muslims.
end quote.

sjh · #**155** 08-03-2011, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

That's a little bit like saying that civilized people behave with more civility. ...

What you state is a tautology.

What I state is an observation.

They are not intrinsically the same.

MTI · #**156** 08-03-2011, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

No, he is not a Christian terrorist. There are quotes in his manifesto that he specifically did not want Christians in his group. The following excerpt from Ann Coulter's column explains it well. Or you could ignore it since its from AC.

Perhaps one day she'll explain or comment about all the other quotes he has made in his writings and statements that do suggest that he is "100% Christian."

But really, what does it matter if the rants of a sociopathic mad man are from a person with any religious affiliation?

davidmash · #**157** 08-03-2011, 01:01 PM

I was going to ask if we could agree that anyone who commits murder in the name of a god is not an adherent of that god teachings regardless of that persons statements to the contrary but I doubt we could even agree on that.

BTW, that is what I believe.

aklim · #**158** 08-03-2011, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I was going to ask if we could agree that anyone who commits murder in the name of a god is not an adherent of that god teachings regardless of that persons statements to the contrary but I doubt we could even agree on that.

BTW, that is what I believe.

What about Abraham who was asked to kill his own son to prove loyalty to some deity?

sjh · #**159** 08-03-2011, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I was going to ask if we could agree that anyone who commits murder in the name of a god is not an adherent of that god teachings regardless of that persons statements to the contrary but I doubt we could even agree on that.

BTW, that is what I believe.

As a Christian, barring extremely unusual circumstances, and realizing that I can only speak for my extremely limited understandings, I'd fully embrace your statement.

cmac2012 · #**160** 08-03-2011, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjh

What you state is a tautology.

What I state is an observation.

They are not intrinsically the same.

My point was that there is no magic pill to move people from incivility to civility. Yes, a healthy democracy is more likely to refrain from attacking another democracy but some amount of social growth is needed for the rule of law in a democracy to be respected. Without that, you have nations resorting to borderline civil war after every other election.

MS Fowler · #**161** 08-03-2011, 02:50 PM

What about followers of Molech?

sjh · #**162** 08-03-2011, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

My point was that there is no magic pill to move people from incivility to civility. Yes, a healthy democracy is more likely to refrain from attacking another democracy but some amount of social growth is needed for the rule of law in a democracy to be respected. Without that, you have nations resorting to borderline civil war after every other election.

I completely concur.

These text-based conversations can be challenging.

There is no 'magic wand' that overnight converts a nation or people into a reasonably functional democracy. It's just that most (probably not for all) democracies are a desirable goal.

It's great when over and over again folks here can interact, have differing perspectives, and often come to some semblance of understanding and courtesy.

MS Fowler · #**163** 08-03-2011, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

My point was that there is no magic pill to move people from incivility to civility. Yes, a healthy democracy is more likely to refrain from attacking another democracy but some amount of social growth is needed for the rule of law in a democracy to be respected. Without that, you have nations resorting to borderline civil war after every other election.

Maybe this is a false trail, but think out loud with me a moment.
I am wondering if the population's feeling about their ability to influence their government has anything to do with this. In democracies, the citizens generally have a feeling of connection with their government, but what happens when the citizens feel their government is beyond control? Will they tend to be as cynical as say, citizens in a dictatorship?
Are we approaching that level of cynicism?

tonkovich · #**164** 08-03-2011, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Maybe this is a false trail, but think out loud with me a moment.
I am wondering if the population's feeling about their ability to influence their government has anything to do with this. In democracies, the citizens generally have a feeling of connection with their government, but what happens when the citizens feel their government is beyond control? Will they tend to be as cynical as say, citizens in a dictatorship?
Are we approaching that level of cynicism?

people in desperate straights tend to believe in the magical and fantastical.

you would be "exhibit A"

the "ghost shirts" would be "exhibit B" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Shirts

for whatever trauma you endured, that caused you to embrace the "magical" , i am empathetic. however, you might want to investigate the source of your trauma, instead of blindly embracing - in an act of desperation - the false promises of some cult.

MS Fowler · #**165** 08-04-2011, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonkovich

people in desperate straights tend to believe in the magical and fantastical.

you would be "exhibit A"

the "ghost shirts" would be "exhibit B" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Shirts

for whatever trauma you endured, that caused you to embrace the "magical" , i am empathetic. however, you might want to investigate the source of your trauma, instead of blindly embracing - in an act of desperation - the false promises of some cult.

Why are you making it personal?
Are you saying that an agnostic could have the same questions regarding civil government?