20% of kids impoverished - yeah right - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

MTUpower · #1 08-19-2011, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Sure. You said, in part:
Could those same people as shown in this example make it with private non profit help? The answers to those questions boils down to individuals' answers- and my answer is the government use of my money is wasted by in large. It was not wasted on her, and so if we could give more money to private non profit help of our choice instead of the to the government we would have more control of it and get better results. Your choice is that my money- and perhaps yours- it best spent by the government, and my choice is that it is not. Yet you want to dictate to me how my money is spent- which I strongly disagree with.

What makes you think I want to dictate how your money is spent? I'd appreciate it if you'd not lump me into some sort of imaginary leftist mind set. You will find after careful reading of my statements that I have not taken exception to the fact that a welfare/entitlement subculture exists in this country. I merely put forth the idea that the causes and solutions are complicated. That it's a self perpetuating trap is pretty evident. When you claim that my choice is that your money is best spent by the government, you are putting words into my mouth that I didn't say, and I don't appreciate it. Talk about assumptions. Unless of course you can quote where I said that, in which case I will stand corrected.

Your whole argument with this post-

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

I suspect we can all tell those tales. I am very close with a former student. ...

-supports government use of funds to help her. That's my money. I don't want it spent in this manner- even if it is a excellent example. I believe she could have gotten the same result using private non profit help. Do I have your view wrong?

elchivito · #2 08-19-2011, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

Your whole argument with this post- -supports government use of funds to help her. That's my money. I don't want it spent in this manner- even if it is a excellent example. I believe she could have gotten the same result using private non profit help. Do I have your view wrong?

If you believe I'm generalizing this to an entire class of people, yes you do. I told a story about one successful person who had the benefit of "your money". Except it wasn't your money. It was tribal assistance paid for by casino proceeds. Could she have had the same result using non profit help? Sure, if such assistance was available, in a perfect world. Personally, I'd like to see an outcome based system of support for these folks who really want to get out of the cycle. The dole clearly isn't working. If we suddenly decided to stop the system altogether though, we'd still pay for them one way or another.

sjh · #3 08-20-2011, 12:54 AM

My goal when I first posted was to ...

1. Question the 20% figure - I'm the guy who sees the bum with the I-pod and encounters cognitive dissonance.

2. Point out that enabling sub-optimal behavior increases its occurrence.

3. To not discuss anecdotal events, the tragic woman in the story, but examine reasons for these sub-optimal behaviors.

I post an important contention and do not hear it accepted or rejected. To me it is quite fundamental to the discussion. --

Who is responsible for me

1. Me
2. My parents
3. My community; defined by shared-values/activities/associations
4. My culture/society
5. My government

Now go through the list from 1 to 5 and determine where the breakdown(s) occurred.

After one address 1 through 4 then come take my money via the government in step 5.

MTUpower · #4 08-20-2011, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

If you believe I'm generalizing this to an entire class of people, yes you do. I told a story about one successful person who had the benefit of "your money". Except it wasn't your money. It was tribal assistance paid for by casino proceeds. Could she have had the same result using non profit help? Sure, if such assistance was available, in a perfect world. Personally, I'd like to see an outcome based system of support for these folks who really want to get out of the cycle. The dole clearly isn't working. If we suddenly decided to stop the system altogether though, we'd still pay for them one way or another.

Which while outside the scope of this thread- brings us to the next point: if we'd still pay for them one way or another- why are we letting more people come into the country? It's not working. I have to pay for more and more people and I'm getting more and more behind. I'm one of the people who pull the cart and instead of making policies which help me and those like me, the country is helping make it easier to not pull the cart and let more onto the cart so my load is heavier. You are correct the dole is not working. I'd also like to see a outcome based system and if things don't change now they never will. Your arguments are consistently on the left and that's not working. The right view works only a small percentage of the time- very small. The country needs more people in the middle and to help those pulling the cart- not those riding on it.

cmac2012 · #5 08-20-2011, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

Which while outside the scope of this thread- brings us to the next point: if we'd still pay for them one way or another- why are we letting more people come into the country? It's not working. I have to pay for more and more people and I'm getting more and more behind. I'm one of the people who pull the cart and instead of making policies which help me and those like me, the country is helping make it easier to not pull the cart and let more onto the cart so my load is heavier. You are correct the dole is not working. I'd also like to see a outcome based system and if things don't change now they never will. Your arguments are consistently on the left and that's not working. The right view works only a small percentage of the time- very small. The country needs more people in the middle and to help those pulling the cart- not those riding on it.

LETTING? We pay people to try to stop them. You might be able to get a job doing that.

elchivito · #6 08-20-2011, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

Which while outside the scope of this thread- brings us to the next point: if we'd still pay for them one way or another- why are we letting more people come into the country? It's not working. I have to pay for more and more people and I'm getting more and more behind. I'm one of the people who pull the cart and instead of making policies which help me and those like me, the country is helping make it easier to not pull the cart and let more onto the cart so my load is heavier. You are correct the dole is not working. I'd also like to see a outcome based system and if things don't change now they never will. Your arguments are consistently on the left and that's not working. The right view works only a small percentage of the time- very small. The country needs more people in the middle and to help those pulling the cart- not those riding on it.

Don't feel rained on. I'm fairly sure most on this list are helping to pull the cart. You have no problem characterizing my arguments as leftist, which I don't agree with, but seem to have trouble admitting to being right wing. Why is that? Why is it so necessary for you to label and therefore judge a person's position?

MTUpower · #7 08-20-2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Don't feel rained on. I'm fairly sure most on this list are helping to pull the cart. You have no problem characterizing my arguments as leftist, which I don't agree with, but seem to have trouble admitting to being right wing. Why is that? Why is it so necessary for you to label and therefore judge a person's position?

You want from past memory of your posts, more money spent on the same education system we have in place now, you are in favor of no very few laws which deal with illegal immigration, and have argued against most right views. It's my opinion you are left of center? What's your view- are you in the middle, left or right? I'm not a republican but more of my views are right than left if an outsider was looking at them. I judge your position on what you post, and what my memory of your posts have said to me- not if you are left or right.

elchivito · #8 08-20-2011, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

You want from past memory of your posts, more money spent on the same education system we have in place now, you are in favor of no very few laws which deal with illegal immigration, and have argued against most right views. It's my opinion you are left of center? What's your view- are you in the middle, left or right? I'm not a republican but more of my views are right than left if an outsider was looking at them. I judge your position on what you post, and what my memory of your posts have said to me- not if you are left or right.

I gave up trying to characterize or identify my positions a long time ago as it's a waste of time, and frankly tedious. I really don't know. Maybe I just like to yank chains and folks like you are easy marks. If it's important to you to place me at some particular point on some sort of political line in order to justify your own standing, be my guest. The constellations only look like the constellations from our perspective on earth, maybe you need leftists in order to know whether or not you're really a righty. Call me left, right, up down or sideways, just don't call me late for supper.

MTUpower · #9 08-20-2011, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

I gave up trying to characterize or identify my positions a long time ago as it's a waste of time, and frankly tedious. I really don't know. Maybe I just like to yank chains and folks like you are easy marks. If it's important to you to place me at some particular point on some sort of political line in order to justify your own standing, be my guest. The constellations only look like the constellations from our perspective on earth, maybe you need leftists in order to know whether or not you're really a righty. Call me left, right, up down or sideways, just don't call me late for supper.

Folks like me? the next step is you'll be calling me "you people" instead of niggar... geez.