I've only had MB diesels (83 and 85 300SD) the 83 was 300k+ when we sold it and got the 85. It's now got 295k+ and the wife is itchy for a new car. I understand that there are no good diesels from MB anymore. We were looking at a 95 E300 Diesel but backed out when I read some of the problems it had.

Now what? I still am hoping to get her a MB. She kinda likes the E class but I don't know anything about the gas motors? What do I need to know? Is the 320 OK? The 430 obviously has more power, but what about dependability? Do they need timing chains and valve jobs after 125k miles? The wife wanted to stay in a big car, but the S-class (140) I've not heard much good about it either.

Kinda scarred of gas motors. Really wish there was a good, dependable diesel in a 95+ MB. (we've even looked at a VW Passat TDI)

Any suggestions?

Hey, can we talk here?

23 people have read this and not a single answer? Someone has got to have an opinion on the E or S class!

Tell me good things, tell me bad things, I just need something to go on. What to look for, questions to ask, etc.

I know -0-, nada, nothing, about the gas burners.

Didn't MB make an E-class diesel for the US Market in '96-99?

I think they added a turbo in 1998; have you checked these out?

I have somewhat. I've not gotten a lot of favorable comments about it though. It's a non-turbo 6 cyl with alum head (problem if ever run hot) and elec injection that's not as dependable as the old 5 cyl.

If someone could convince me that these are still OK motors, I'd love to go that way instead of a gas burner.

From your signature, you appear to be a diesel guy.

Why change?

When you say "It's now got 295k+ and the wife is itchy for a new car", do you mean an updated (non-W123, non-W126) model?

She's just wanting a "newer" car. 95 or newer. Yes, I have always had very good service from diesels. I like the low maintenance and dependability. But now the newer MB diesels seem to be of less quality that I'm used to.

I know the 124 E-class body's had wiring harness problems. If that's been fix, are they still good cars? The S-class (140) looks good and the wife wants the larger car, but I've not heard a lot of praise for these cars.

I know I'm asking a lot, I'd just like as much info as possible to make a wise decision.

I was informed by my Indie that he hadn't been real impressed with the longevity (or at least repair costs) of the lastest generation of diesels. Main reason being, the lighter alloys used in the block and heads. While reducing wieght, they seemed to have also reduced somewhat, the longevity the W123's were reknown for (which had iron blocks). He said they run incredibly well when tuned and new, but were hit and miss after about 80kmi. Bear in mind, however, he doesn't get too many in his shop - just his experience.

I would throw out a suggestion for any of the V8 W124 E-classes (400E/E420). I've just purchased one (a '95), and can't say enough good things about it. From detailed searches in the archives and asking a few questions of my own, it seems that the M119 motors is extremely reliable (one gent here has gone through three of them and all near or over 300kmi!), and relatively inexpensive to maintain. With the head-gasket problems of the M104 V6 of the E320 and only marginally worse gas mileage (1-3mpg), the extra power and durability of the V8 proved too much for me to resist.

On a recent road trip with the cruise set at 82-3mph we got 26mpg(!), and power is like nothing you've experienced if you've lived in diesel-world for awhile As one who also owns a W123 300D, I know!

Of course, the M119 is known for wiring harness problems, PS pump leaks, and other more minor issues, but these appear to be less common that the issues with the 6cyl. in the 320.

Hope this helps a little at least - good luck with the search! I know it's hard going from diesel to gas, but if you stick with MB - you'll do alright with your homework done.

Regards,
- Ryan

__________________
'95 E420 - 'Shadowfax' 138kmi.
'92 Volvo 740Turbo Bard 193kmi
'74 240D - 'Ol' Green' 4spd Manual 104kmi. (sold )
'77 300D - 'Red' 223kmi (sold)
'75 240D - 'Bianca the Blue Bomber' (sold)

You have some tough decisions to make.

Basically, it all boils down to your budget and how much you want to afford on maintaining your new acquisition.

I traded a 1985 300D w/ 200K for my 1991 300CE (starmarked at 70K miles) seven years ago. I now have over 161K miles on the car. Having lived with both, I feel that the W124 has given me less trouble "overall" and I love the way it looks and drives. My W123 had some minor rust issues, etc. because it was a "northern car"....New Hampshire.

Personally, I think the W140 is a very good car, but I would not want to afford the service bills. Again, boils down to the cash issue.

Bottom line, don't be afraid of a W124 gasser....they are good cars. Will they be more expensive to maintain than a 240 4-speed with manual windows and no sunroof or air? Hell yes!

Pick the car you can afford that stirs your soul! That's the best advice I can give.

E.P.

We've driven the 400E, wow is all I can say as a diesel dude.

Do all the E-class cars, even the 400/420's have wiring harness problems or is it only the 300/320's?

As far as the V8's, should there be timing chain or valve work I should look for in 100k+ cars?

By the way, saw a 500E on the road today?!!!? Should that thing fly or what?

I don't think there's any reason to stay away from the 95-99 E-class Diesels. Certainly not if the alternative is a gasoline engine in the same car. From what I've read, the later Diesels are not more troublesome than their gasoline counterparts, and performance and mileage have improved considerably over older Diesels. If a later Diesel needs a new timing chain twice as often as your SDs did, so what? It's still not more frequently than a gasoline MB will need a new timing chain.

Sixto
91 300SE
81 300SD

First Capn', yes! The 500E/E500 is a whole other machine - Porsche had a large part in developing it, though is largely made-up of Mercedes-sourced parts (more robust drivelines, slightly differnt M119 engines, more agressive transmission gearing). I was looking for one for awhile, but exclusivity makes them harder to find, and I didn't want to pay the insurance and higher fuel-consumption costs. But I say, if the 400E impressed you, the 500 will astound even further Check the hot-rod forum - there are several members there very experienced with these machines.

Actually, it's my understanding that engine wiring harness issue affected both the 6 and 8 cylinder models though it should be noted that some have no probelms at all with high mileage, so it's kind of a crap shoot. One good thing is, these cars are starting to get some higher miles on them, so a well maintained example could already have had it done.

I hear many folks here say that the M119 V8 needs new timing chain and tensioners every 100k regardless, but I have a slightly different view based on some respectable tech-opinions: the timing chain, if properly maintained (read: regular oil changes), has no recommened change interval from the factory. It's a very durable system. Now, it certainly is wise to have them inspected at 100K or so, but if it isn't worn or doesn't show any stretch (or is within specs), I don't think replacement is a necessity. I should also add that if the tensioners are badly worn and need replacing, the cost of a new chain is minimal and probably should be replaced while the thing is taken apart. I think a chain/tensioer replacement will run you about $1500 p&l from what I've heard around here.

Let us know what you go with!

Regards,
- Ryan

PS, that's a good point sixto - head gaskets and wiring harnesses
aren't cheap fixes! I was just ready for a bahn-burner when I started shopping a few months ago. El presidente said it best buy whatever stirs you sould, but get the nicest one you can afford, with the best service history!

__________________
'95 E420 - 'Shadowfax' 138kmi.
'92 Volvo 740Turbo Bard 193kmi
'74 240D - 'Ol' Green' 4spd Manual 104kmi. (sold )
'77 300D - 'Red' 223kmi (sold)
'75 240D - 'Bianca the Blue Bomber' (sold)

I've read a few isolated posts about the V8's needing wire harness replacements, but I believe they are very isolated problems, where as the 93-95 M104's are systematic.
I would include in my list the 93-95 W124's with the M119 or M104 engine. The 93 M104 is badged 300E even though it has the 3.2 liter in-line 6 like the 94-95 W124 and the 96-97 W210. The 92-93 M119's are badged 400E, even though the engine is 4.2 liters like the 94-95. You won't be disappointed in the power if you go with the M104. I have driven the 3.0 liter M103's, and the seat of the pants difference in performance seemed enourmous to me. However, if the wire harness hadn't been changed, I'd do it immediately. Just budget around $800 installed.

I would also include the 92-95 400E / E420. I think Benzmac has pretty clearly stated the wire harness problems, and the V8's are not included.

I wouldn't be afraid if you have to change the wiring harness. If you go with the V8, I've read so much advice from owners / techs about 100,000 - 130,000 mile timing chain / guide rail replacements, you're going to spend more money replacing chains guides than changing the wire harness once. The techs are also adamant that the chain on the sixes is so short and because of the tensioner, they routinely go 300,000 miles plus without worry. Guides are also not a problem for some reason with the 6's. (why? I don't know).

Do a search. The wiring harness issue and the timing chain / guide issue seem to get beaten to death about every couple of weeks.

I've also read of the enourmous cost of ownership with the W140's, but it seems the vast majority of the problems were in the early years. I see some of these cars advertised in the low 20's to mid-teens already. I wonder if the bugs have already been worked out by the first owner. You can look at some of the later models which would be a safer bet, but they probably haven't depreciated enough to hit your price range. For that matter, what is your budget? That would help clear things up a bit.

I think the only thing, though, that would scare me away from a W140 is the dreaded evaporator leak. The whole dash of the car needs to be removed to get to it. Seems like a whole days worth of work just to get to it. I've read horror stories of $4,000 to $5,000 repair bills.

Let us know what you think.

__________________
Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Ive have had no wiring harness problems on my 1991CE. It think it may have affected 400/420's (1992 up) and 300/320's from (1993 up). Not entirely sure about the 1992 300s. Also, I believe the wiring harnesses in the 1986-1991 124s were fine.

If you find a car you like, make sure that this has been repaired (for your own peace of mind). This also relates to the other "issues" the M119 and M104 series cars may have had.

Captain,
I'm sure that you know this, but be sure to see the VMI before you buy the car, it contains all sorts of information about the car and service history. I'm currently looking for a 94-95, or 97 E420 with the factory "Sportline" suspension, and I won't even arrange for a test drive if the owner is not willing to Fax me a copy of the VMI for 2 reasons: 1. I need to see the "Sportline" listed under the options because everyone seems to be advertising their E420's as "Special Editions", and 2. to make sure there is nothing out of the ordinary in the service history. Good luck, and if you make the switch from diesel, I hope that you consider an E420, in my opinion its got it all.

__________________
Thanks,
Dave

1998 BMW 540i Sport
1995 E320
1992 400E
1989 BMW M3
1979 Triumph TR7 (1st car)
1986 BMW 735i (Sold)
1980 BMW 320i (Sold)

I agree 100% that a VMI is a necessity when hunting for a preowned MB.

Funny, on my VMI, it shows that I had "5-spoke wheels" as on option on my 1991 300CE....we all know THAT'S not a possibility, right?