So Much for AWD - Page 24 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

ned2683 · #**346** 04-24-2013, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Ned, I fear you are wasting your time here. You'll never convince some of these folks. They will continue to demand more and more detailed information from you so they can frame their argument just outside the border of your well supported position, all the while never backing up a single incredulous claim of their own.

yeah i think i'll retire from this thread.

Maybe a good topic for myth busters tho?

t walgamuth · #**347** 04-24-2013, 06:21 AM

I asked my SIL the Porsche head about a head to head 911 AWD vs RWD test. He suggested I look on Utube for such. I have not done that yet.

layback40 · #**348** 04-24-2013, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ned2683

i too lazy

My information comes from an Associate Professor in road safety research at one of my countries leading universities. He is/was a close friend of mine while we both studied over 35 years ago.
Your use of the regular google & Wikipedia shows that your arguments lack technical credibility.
The study I mentioned is not freely available. If you were involved in appropriate research at a suitable university you may be able to get access.
The information that you have posted appears to be not much more than marketing mumbo-jumbo. The is no raw data nor experimentation details. Using the argument that a particular company does this or that proves nothing.

ned2683 · #**349** 04-24-2013, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

My information comes from an Associate Professor in road safety research at one of my countries leading universities. He is/was a close friend of mine while we both studied over 35 years ago.
Your use of the regular google & Wikipedia shows that your arguments lack technical credibility.
The study I mentioned is not freely available. If you were involved in appropriate research at a suitable university you may be able to get access.
The information that you have posted appears to be not much more than marketing mumbo-jumbo. The is no raw data nor experimentation details. Using the argument that a particular company does this or that proves nothing.

you provided a reference and claimed it was the end all be all study, yet you cannot give details on it?

Actually when i was a part of a research group that did experiments in Germany 5 years ago we had a state of the art technical testing lab. We had access to ice and dirt tracks as well as road courses, the project was funded by the top names in the automotive industries. We found that the affects of AWD was not beneficial to road courses and repeated this results several times with a 99% confidence level. of course this study is not available to the general public and i should ask you to take my word for it because this study was done after your study.

cmbdiesel · #**350** 04-24-2013, 10:33 AM

ah.... the old super-secret need-to-know study.... very convenient.

I feel that the links and support that Ned has put up are extremely convincing, and have yet to see anything other than vapor from the contrary position....

cmbdiesel · #**351** 04-24-2013, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ned2683

you provided a reference and claimed it was the end all be all study, yet you cannot give details on it?

Actually when i was a part of a research group that did experiments in Germany 5 years ago we had a state of the art technical testing lab. We had access to ice and dirt tracks as well as road courses, the project was funded by the top names in the automotive industries. We found that the affects of AWD was not beneficial to road courses and repeated this results several times with a 99% confidence level. of course this study is not available to the general public and i should ask you to take my word for it because this study was done after your study.

ned2683 · #**352** 04-24-2013, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ned2683

Actually i call BS on his "Japanese study FOR Subaru" i am a car guy and NEVER heard of such thing ever. i did my google-fu and found nothing about it. if you cannot produce it then i may as well not give you the link to Ferrari's study that RWD is 2X faster than AWD that i have hidden away.

not looking to get in a fight, but some crazy "facts" have been said in this thread.

I was asked to give examples of motorsports that AWD does not dominate and i gave 2 (autocross and race laps).

some guys ask for an explanation and people had tried to simplify it, then they say you can simplify it like that and called us arm chair racers.

then name calling, then personal attacks that i know nothing of.

seems like i am spending a lot of time on the defense and trying to prove it to people who won't hear it. so let me get this challenge out:

1. Provide to me a motorsport that all drivetrains can compete in where AWD dominates RWD (and FWD) - that is not rally and not drag racing

2. Show me this so called scientific study that some "Japanese university did 10 years ago for Subaru" i am doubting its existence, and if it does and the University DID IT FOR SUBARU, i am guessing there are some iffy details in their (like leaving the weight in for the differentials and drive shaft) cannot provide

challenge 1 still open

ned2683 · #**353** 04-24-2013, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I asked my SIL the Porsche head about a head to head 911 AWD vs RWD test. He suggested I look on Utube for such. I have not done that yet.

the current AWD should be slightly faster than RWD. because they have wider rear tires/ wider track and only added 50 lbs.

i cannot find any youtube on that but i have seen a test track. this would make sense to me with the added width and rubber as well as the very minimal weight gain.

so this example is in your favor! (this is with the 991, not sure if the 997,996 and 993 follow this same trend or not)

t walgamuth · #**354** 04-24-2013, 11:03 AM

All we have to do is round up a couple of porsches and conduct our own scientific test!

BTW I heard it was 100# difference.

ned2683 · #**355** 04-24-2013, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

All we have to do is round up a couple of porsches and conduct our own scientific test!

BTW I heard it was 100# difference.

oh wouldn't that be fun!, i wonder if you can simply add spacers and wider wheels on the RWD and make it the same or not. they appear to have the same rims even.

the test listed 63lbs, but the website says it over 100lbs

305 vs 295 rear tires, and about 2" in wider.

faster Hockenheim laptime by 3/10 of a second.

in this example i say they did an awesome job minimizing all the AWD downfalls.

PorscheBoost - RWD vs. AWD - Sport Auto Porsche 991 Carrera S versus 991 Carrera 4S test numbers in the dry, wet, and snow

cmbdiesel · #**356** 04-24-2013, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

All we have to do is round up a couple of porsches and conduct our own scientific test!

BTW I heard it was 100# difference.

Now you're talkin'!!!

rickmay · #**357** 04-24-2013, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

Well to all you arm chair experts who wish to use what ever "science" you can claim to give an opinion on this. A university in Japan did some work for Subaru about 10 years ago. They conducted a series of tests using one of the Subaru AWD's. They undertook cornering tests with AWD, rear wheel drive only connected & front wheel drive only connected.
One of the many results was that that when they compared maximum cornering speeds of the 3 configurations, the AWD showed a significantly higher speed. This was examined at a 95% confidence level with the null hypothesis being rejected. The rear wheel / front wheel comparison did not achieve a null hypothesis rejection at the 95% confidence level.
This is very definitive & for those who wish to understand better, best remember what you were supposed to have learned 1/2 way through your undergraduate engineering studies.

There is nothing closer to measure the all around performance of a car (whether two wheel or four wheel drive) than the FIA Rally car racing. Once again....

"4-Wheel Drive fact

The FIA World Rally Championship (WRC) is one of the world’s premier racing series. As races are held on tarmac, dirt, mud, and snow-covered stages -- no matter the weather condition -- all the top-level WRC racecars are 4-wheel drive.

Audi’s Quattro introduced 4-wheel drive to the WRC in 1980. As the Quattro was based on an actual production car, WRC officials changed the preexisting rule banning 4-wheel drive vehicles and allowed the car to compete. The Audi quickly began to dominate its 2WD competition, . . ."

Read more: 4-Wheel Drive - AskMen

Read more: 4-Wheel Drive - AskMen

I don't know how one can come to the conclusion that a 2-wheel drive car will do better than a 4-wheel drive car, under any condition, unless it was driven by an "arm chair expert."

ned2683 · #**358** 04-24-2013, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickmay

There is nothing closer to measure the all around performance of a car (whether two wheel or four wheel drive) than the FIA Rally car racing. Once again....

this is your opinion, NOT a fact. can you say Nascar is better than F1?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickmay

"4-Wheel Drive fact

The FIA World Rally Championship (WRC) is one of the world’s premier racing series. As races are held on tarmac, dirt, mud, and snow-covered stages -- no matter the weather condition -- all the top-level WRC racecars are 4-wheel drive.

Audi’s Quattro introduced 4-wheel drive to the WRC in 1980. As the Quattro was based on an actual production car, WRC officials changed the preexisting rule banning 4-wheel drive vehicles and allowed the car to compete. The Audi quickly began to dominate its 2WD competition, . . ."

Read more: 4-Wheel Drive - AskMen

Read more: 4-Wheel Drive - AskMen

i agree that this is a fact, 4WD has dominated rally. I never argued this and carefully left my self an out for all rally and drag races where 4wd will have the advantage. its a moot point you are making here because nowadays all rally cars are 4WD. 4WD has advantage is bad weather and less than ideal conditions. so to get a good conclusion you would have to have a dumb team showing up with a RWD rally car and look at his sectional time in tarmac and compare it to its AWD rivals. obviously no team will do this because it will get eaten up on the dirt course. so you basically gave a OBVIOUS example here that no one argues against, and used it as the FINAL answer.

i have already shown that 4wd was tried in F1 and was not successful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickmay

I don't know how one can come to the conclusion that a 2-wheel drive car will do better than a 4-wheel drive car, under any condition, unless it was driven by an "arm chair expert."

i draw my conclusion from my little racing experience, physics, and all the examples i have given (both autocross and track times of all the famous tracks). my challange still stand:

1. Provide to me a motorsport that all drivetrains can compete in where AWD dominates RWD (and FWD) - that is not rally and not drag racing

t walgamuth · #**359** 04-24-2013, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ned2683

this is your opinion, NOT a fact. can you say Nascar is better than F1?

i agree that this is a fact, 4WD has dominated rally. I never argued this and carefully left my self an out for all rally and drag races where 4wd will have the advantage. its a moot point you are making here because nowadays all rally cars are 4WD. 4WD has advantage is bad weather and less than ideal conditions. so to get a good conclusion you would have to have a dumb team showing up with a RWD rally car and look at his sectional time in tarmac and compare it to its AWD rivals. obviously no team will do this because it will get eaten up on the dirt course. so you basically gave a OBVIOUS example here that no one argues against, and used it as the FINAL answer.

i have already shown that 4wd was tried in F1 and was not successful.

i draw my conclusion from my little racing experience, physics, and all the examples i have given (both autocross and track times of all the famous tracks). my challange still stand:

1. Provide to me a motorsport that all drivetrains can compete in where AWD dominates RWD (and FWD) - that is not rally and not drag racing

Most of the other series AWD is illegal. Can you name one where it is legal and not being used?

ned2683 · #**360** 04-24-2013, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Most of the other series AWD is illegal. Can you name one where it is legal and not being used?

Autocross - B stock

I cant come up with a mainstream one. autocross is the only one i know, but that is so course dependent.

Brings up a good point to say AWD cars are better because they dominate rally is like saying RWD cars are better because they dominate F1 or Nascar.

i think we can all agree that AWD adds weight? and that a lighter car performs better than a heavier car?

BTW i think we have gone around and around with this, if you do a search on the internet there has been SEVERAL of these same topics. That's why i was actually interested in this super secret need to know study.

you guys have not done a job convincing me as i have not to you. probably the nature of the topic is that we have our mind set, and another person - on an internet message board no less is going to convince us otherwise.