Why?
The Christians I know would quickly turn heaven into a hell hole.
Honestly; Why in heavens name would anyone want to be berated, insulted and slapped around by Christians for all eternity? Hazing in Jr. High was bad enough......but for an eternity?

__________________

"Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration...
don't Fail Us Now"

Absolutely not! I do not find it offensive. I simply find it wrong. However, because of certain limitations of language and from the Christian's perspective, certain things are absolutely controlled and there are limited ways to phrase things. And, because someone denies God and his son Jesus, I am not compelled to re-phrase how I think. As for going to hell or not, no one on earth can make that decision. There is clear guidance in the Bible about what happens to someone, but I cannot imagine one human telling another human that one is going to hell. Even Hitler or Stalin on their deathbed could accept Jesus and if sincere, then who am I to say what Jesus will do or not do. Remember, from MY perspective, I am not worthy to dust the dust off Jesus' sandals, so I am going to be making a prediction about your life and death? How in the world you got that message from what I wrote is beyond me.

martureo, I am curious, does the books you've read or teachings you've learned indicate any reasoning behind the time frame? Like why was that period in time chosen? Why not the period where the Greeks were in power or a time before that?

My ancient history when it come to religion(s) is fairly weak.

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I have yet to reference that I think the Bible is fact. (assumption #1)

The three centuries of scholars I mentioned, the majority of them were/are atheists. (assumption #2)

And you claim I'm all over the place.... sheesh. I think I'm almost useless in this type of debate as you don't want a dialogue, you want a monologue.

I wish I would've followed my own hunch and stopped talking to you awhile ago. Your lack of knowledge in the areas of ancient culture, theology, textual transmission and textual criticism are only replaced by a bunch of pseudo facts strung together with some really really bad logic.

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..... I guess you forgot what you've been referring back to.

post 173-

post 178-

These are the two comments you have referred to throughout the entire thread as proof that I am wrong about whatever you disagree with. Isn't Phillipians the 11th book of the new testament?
Perhaps my train of logic is fuzzy here, but wouldn't you be referring to something from the bible as fact in order to say I am completely wrong in the above quotes?

does their opinion carry more weight because they might be athiests? since when do you take the scholarly word of an athiest as true in relation to Christ? Seems unlikely, but why don't you cite these scholars, would be interesting to read.

again, this is not a real response. I thought we were having a conversation, or as much as we could with your constant return to personal attack.

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I suppose you mean the time period of the Incarnation (Christ)?

Because of prophecy. And why the prophecy? Well, you're going to ask God for that answer.

My personal opinion was because God forsaw a period of widespread apostasy. I'll try to make this short.

Man lives with God. Man sins. God casts men out of the Garden. God sends down the law, Israel starts following false gods, God sends a prophet to call people to repentence, people kill the prophet and God punishes them. The people repent and follow God alone. (Repeat X number of times.)

Then God says "really guys? have you not learned from the error of your fathers? I'll let other nations conquer you and put you into exile for X number of years". The people repent and God eventually restores the people back to Israel.

The people get back to Israel and instead of rebuilding Jerusalem's walls (torn down in the invasion) or the Temple, the people start living the good life. Building their houses bigger, rejoicing in their wealth, ignoring the poor. God sends a prophet and punishes the people for their sins. They eventually rebuild the temple.

A group of the religious leaders say "hey, let's make sure we adhere to the law as best we possibly can. We are NOT going to get exiled again." This group eventually became known as the Pharisees. They tried to make sure that they followed the very letter of the law to the nth degree.

(Funny bit about the Pharisees to let you know how serious they were.)

So rest on the Sabbath day was a pretty big law. No hunting, no doing work, no carrying a load across a property line. That type of stuff.

The Pharisees then figure that it is unlawful to swat a fly on the Sabbath. Why you say? Well, because if a man swats at a fly and misses, he will inevitably try again. And if he missed the second time he will inevitably try a third. The third time he is sinning because he's obviously hunting the fly and thus violating the Sabbath law of rest.

I am absolutely serious about that.

Anyway, the Pharisaical tradition gets more and more rules from the tradition of the learned leaders/thinkers. There are literally thousands of rules now on top of the original rules that God laid down. But there's a problem. No one is actually following the spirit of the Law. No one is thinking of why that law was put in place. They are trying to follow the letter of the law and find every loophole possible. Some pretty harsh legalism going on.

So in this period we have the Romans rule, a Jewish king in charge of Judea (who's only Jewish by blood), and the religious rulers following the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. The poor are getting poorer, the rich getting richer and a great amount of spiritual apostasy because of the outward righteousness sought by following the Law.


God shows up as Jesus and starts living the perfect life, he is the perfect example of man both living righteously by the law and in communion (relationship) with God.

So, Jesus shows up and one thing He keeps mentioning is that the Pharisees were like the really nice white marble tombs you see in cemeteries sometimes. They were very pretty on the outside but full of filth and death on the inside. He again uses the image of someone foolishly washing the outside of a cup and ignoring the inside.

One also has to consider that since Rome was the power over the area at the time and there was relative peace within the empire it would be very very easy to spread the message of the coming of God all over the empire. Common language (koine Greek), no borders to worry about crossing, etc.

----------------

While this was a 30,000 ft view of the situation and doesn't really go into the soteriological (salvation, how man sits with God) aspect of it all. It might give you a picture as to why this point in Jewish history was kind of the perfect place for the Incarnation to happen.

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Man, just when I think your reading comprehension and logic can't possibly get any worse, you go and surprise me.

There is a very big difference between saying "this document says X, proving that X was believed in the 1st century" and "I believe what the document when it says X".

Please learn the difference. But neither the Old Testament nor New Testament canons are in order of their authorship or chronological order.

But like I said before, who cares about the accuracy of a claim when an argument is built on it? I don't care who does the work as long as it's honest and documented. Just stating the facts of the situation. I like facts. I like truth.

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And then you write fantasy like this:



Man lives with God. Man sins. God casts men out of the Garden. God sends down the law, Israel starts following false gods, God sends a prophet to call people to repentence, people kill the prophet and God punishes them. The people repent and follow God alone. (Repeat X number of times.)

Then God says "really guys? have you not learned from the error of your fathers? I'll let other nations conquer you and put you into exile for X number of years". The people repent and God eventually restores the people back to Israel.

The people get back to Israel and instead of rebuilding Jerusalem's walls (torn down in the invasion) or the Temple, the people start living the good life. Building their houses bigger, rejoicing in their wealth, ignoring the poor. God sends a prophet and punishes the people for their sins. They eventually rebuild the temple.

A group of the religious leaders say "hey, let's make sure we adhere to the law as best we possibly can. We are NOT going to get exiled again." This group eventually became known as the Pharisees. They tried to make sure that they followed the very letter of the law to the nth degree.

(Funny bit about the Pharisees to let you know how serious they were.)

So rest on the Sabbath day was a pretty big law. No hunting, no doing work, no carrying a load across a property line. That type of stuff.

The Pharisees then figure that it is unlawful to swat a fly on the Sabbath. Why you say? Well, because if a man swats at a fly and misses, he will inevitably try again. And if he missed the second time he will inevitably try a third. The third time he is sinning because he's obviously hunting the fly and thus violating the Sabbath law of rest.

I am absolutely serious about that.

Anyway, the Pharisaical tradition gets more and more rules from the tradition of the learned leaders/thinkers. There are literally thousands of rules now on top of the original rules that God laid down. But there's a problem. No one is actually following the spirit of the Law. No one is thinking of why that law was put in place. They are trying to follow the letter of the law and find every loophole possible. Some pretty harsh legalism going on.

So in this period we have the Romans rule, a Jewish king in charge of Judea (who's only Jewish by blood), and the religious rulers following the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. The poor are getting poorer, the rich getting richer and a great amount of spiritual apostasy because of the outward righteousness sought by following the Law.


God shows up as Jesus and starts living the perfect life, he is the perfect example of man both living righteously by the law and in communion (relationship) with God.

So, Jesus shows up and one thing He keeps mentioning is that the Pharisees were like the really nice white marble tombs you see in cemeteries sometimes. They were very pretty on the outside but full of filth and death on the inside. He again uses the image of someone foolishly washing the outside of a cup and ignoring the inside.

One also has to consider that since Rome was the power over the area at the time and there was relative peace within the empire it would be very very easy to spread the message of the coming of God all over the empire. Common language (koine Greek), no borders to worry about crossing, etc.

----------------

While this was a 30,000 ft view of the situation and doesn't really go into the soteriological (salvation, how man sits with God) aspect of it all. It might give you a picture as to why this point in Jewish history was kind of the perfect place for the Incarnation to happen.
__________________

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so? what does the chronology have to do with the fact that you refer to either as factual evidence of Jesus as god, and then later claim you never referred to the bible as fact? Thats textbook contradiction of yourself.

Im looking here, but I haven't seen you cite these athiest scholars on their belief that Jesus could not write, but could read perfectly well. If its documented, then present it so we can all see it.

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except that somewhere in this first part are 165 million years of dinosaurs running around he forgets to mention. Strangely no Israelites were dug up in the fossil record, but I guess thats inconvenient to bring up.

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Maybe the dinosaurs had their own iteration of Jesus? Raptor Jesus?

Maybe dinosaurs were a mistake, not suitably sentient? and he decided to wipe the slate clean and chucked an asteroid at the Earth.

This discussion gets more interesting if you tie in the age of the Earth, other species that were/are living on here as well as the age of the universe and its size/scope.

__________________
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thats what I was saying earlier. If the age of fossils are estimated accurately based on repeatedly proven science such as radiocarbon dating, then humanity has been here about 5 minutes as far as the earth is concerned.

Dinosaurs were here 800+ times longer than us, yet we have the presumption to claim that a god in our image made everything? Seems unlikely.

Its like you have a new years party, and the next morning at 9am a guy shows up for 5 minutes and claims he hosted the party.

Except in reality it would be a new years party that lasted as long as the bronze age.

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I'll take this last bit of dishonesty and misrepresentation as my cue to leave. Go to your local bookstore.

Good bye.

__________________
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Promise?
You have ran this game before.

__________________
CHILCUTT~
The secret to a long life. Is knowing when it is time to leave.

you obviously contradicted yourself, I called you on it, and now you claim im dishonest? Somehow you saying one thing, then denying it, and having that pointed out is misrepresentation? If only life were so, unfortunately the real world is different.

wow, you don't even have all this scholarly evidence that jesus could read and could not write available even though you strongly claim its-

A name perhaps of one of these athiest scholars? If they all said and agreed with the same conclusion over 300 years, there should be a bunch of them.

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