Oh my... the Corolla clutch has something to tell me... yes, clutch chatter...
 

Now that it's been getting colder here in New England, I've noticed a somewhat unsettling behavior in the Corolla: clutch chatter. When the car is cold and I am engaging first (or second from an abnormally low speed), the clutch makes a chattering noise and shakes the whole car. After confirming that I was nowhere near stalling, I figured that it must be clutch chatter because it felt like something I would call clutch chatter. I researched it a bit and found an ASE page on clutch chatter. They listed the following as possible causes:

• Worn flywheel
• Worn clutch
• Leaking crankshaft main seal or transmission front seal
• Bad pilot bearing
• Pressure plate wear

I'm trying to guess as to which one of these it may be. I think one of the main clues is that it only happens when cold, but I'm not quite sure what it means :rolleyes:. The car doesn't use oil to my knowledge (though I will be watching that more carefully), so I doubt it's the crankshaft main seal, and I'm dubious on the pilot bearing, because I'm not seeing any other pilot bearing failure symptoms -- although the car does squeak when putting in the clutch. The clutch does not slip even when I floor it in 5th @35 MPH (GRUNT GRunt grunt).

It seems to me that if it was a fluid leak, the behavior would not be tied to the outside temperature. My money at this point is on the flywheel or clutch (I learned to drive in this car, so the clutch got some major abuse around 132,000... it is now @ 150,000), but what do you guys think? Why would the chatter only happen when it is cold out? It happens with an ambient temperature of 50 in the morning (the previous night had been in the 40s), but at 60 in the afternoon you have to really concentrate to notice it.

Also, I'm thinking that I can let this go for at least another 5000+/- miles before I fix anything -- does that sound reasonable? I'm thinking of maybe tackling it around Christmas break.

heat exapansion vs cold contraction probably. Something might be on the edge of worn and when cold demonstrates an issue, then heats up with use and expands a little. That or its sticky in there and the cold is preventing the release bearing from moving up and down the collar super easily until it heats up.
Like the ASE page shows, it could be anything in the bell housing. Are there any noises at specific times? are you hearing any grinding or squealing with clutch in or out? that will help us narrow down causes.

How many burnouts have you done on this car? be honest now
:D

as far as longevity, its possible to milk a clutch problem for a looong time, just so long as you never fully trust the car, like no really long road trips.

Im sure you could wait to christmas, but no more street racing till then.

It really doesn't matter which one it is. It's the same amount of work for any of them. Resurface the flywheel and replace all the other parts.

That said, if I were you, I'd drive it a little while first. Sometimes, chatter will go away as the lining wears.

I tend to side with Larry. Given the amount of labor involved, if I were going in I'd be replacing everything. I'd also rebuild the clutch slave cylinder along the way.

Given your specific symptom, I'd think most about the throwout bearing. But still, if I were going in that far, a new/rebuilt pressure plate and clutch plate would be in the works. I don't know that I'd bother with resurfacing the flywheel, though, as I can't figure out what that would have to do with chatter only when cold. Plus, unless a modern flywheel is seriously abused, they usually outlast the rest of the car.

That said, so long as it's not slipping and the problem doesn't get markedly worse (which might indicate an impending failure in the clutch plate or TO bearing), then I'd just drive it.

You won't know for sure if the flywheel needs resurfacing until you get in there. An overheated flywheel with all sorts of checking and bluing can MOST DEFINITELY cause clutch chatter though.

Street racing? I do that in the minivan. Toyota Corolla 0-60 is 9.2 seconds where the Toyota Sienna is 7.0. It may not be cool, but it wins more races.

Any abnormal clutch wear is due to me but for a more embarrassing reason than burnouts :D.

Something that I like about this is that while there are many potential causes for the issue, they are all fixed the same way, so there is no guessing. I've been looking for an excuse to do the clutch before I go off to college, so I guess this'll do.

Hey! I should race SirNik's wimpbox Honda in my Sienna! Vroomvroomvrooooom baby!

I'll probably just resurface the flywheel anyway -- I'm guessing it's not too pretty at this point. After what Million Mile Joe did, I'm counting on driving this car 'til the day I die :D.

Interesting thought about rebuilding the slave -- hadn't thought of that.

It absolutely can, and I didn't say it couldn't, did I?

Every time I ever came across a flywheel in need of resurfacing, it caused problems ALL the time, not just when COLD, which is exactly what I said: I couldn't see the flywheel causing this OP's specific symptom.

That said, you are correct that there is no way to know if the flywheel needs attention until you're in there, and that's the time to make that call. Still, guessing about it beforehand, I can't theorize any way it could underlie the cause of this OP's specific symptom.

that may not be worth it, but its a good idea if it is worth it cost wise. My experience from my old toyota truck was that a brand new slave was chump change, but that was a nearly 20 years old truck at this point. Id do a cost analysis.

My slave was I think under 10 bucks unbelievably.

you're taking the corolla to college? what happened to the GM sedan?

No, the Corolla will be staying at home, (although so will I, we are looking at commuting for at least the first few years to save money), but I just want to get it done when I know I'll have time to do it. The thing has 150,000 on the original, I learned to drive in it, and my sister will be learning to drive in it next year, so it's only a matter of time...

Just pull the front clip from the Sienna and bolt it on to the Corolla. Many problems solved in one fell swoop!

Psst...hoodstack!

Ah, but there's one major problem with that:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/17/e6y9avas.jpg

Hood stack? YES! :D :D :D

Hood stack joke:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/open-discussion/335084-exhaust-restriction-my-big-dodge-2.html

No problem, clutch issue solved! :P

I hate seeing contention over a repair thread. You DID, however say that you didn't think you'd bother with a flywheel resurface. What else was I supposed to think? I was trying NOT to be contentious. I can bow out of the thread if you wish.

As far as diagnosing a throw out bearing or anything else, I personally would have to experience and feel the vibration/chatter/whatever myself, but when it comes to a clutch issue that requires work, there's not too much point in trying to diagnose before you get it apart, since it's best to do it ALL while you're there IMHO.

...and clutch issue created, i.e. lack thereof. I'll swap clips when you put a hood stack on Mrs. Swamp's van :D.

Challenge accepted!!! :cool: :D

All right! Pics or it didn't happen :D.

The VW Golf mk2 service manual talked about this exact problem in one chapter, the excerpt was that the clutch friction plate hub was sticking on the splines of the transmission causing the juddering. They even offered a nickel plated clutch hub (I think aircooled VWs also used that - their splines were similar in some years to the FWD transmission too - I think it was called O2O transmission or something.

To remedy this, most mechanics in countries where there are a lot of 3 pedal cars buff the splines and apply some antisieze type compound on it or some even use the same grease as Honda motorcycle shaft drive rear hub take.

The VW thing maybe off from this because the toyota uses a pressure plate on the outside of the clutch and the bearing is pressing against the fingers of the pressure plate levering it off the friction plate. The VW FWD is not like this, it has its pressure plate bolted to the engine and flywheel bolted to the pressure plate - the clutch bearing is on the tail of the transmission and pushes a cup shaped plate via a pushrod to disengage the clutch. The concept is the same - but this remedy that VW addressed may or may not work on your case.

That's interesting about the VWs. I'd probably be replacing the thing.

Looking around, I can get the LuK clutch kit -- with pressure plate, disc, release bearing, and pilot bearing -- for $88. I can get a slave refurbish kit for $13. I'll call around, but I think that I can get the flywhe resurfaced around here for ~$20-$30.

Am I missing something? Something I haven't thought of?

I change the oil in the gearbox, but you can do that whenever. But I'll usually drain the trans before I pull it down so when you take the half shafts out you don't make a mess.

Fresh fluid will be good for the transmission too.

I did the fluid about 15,000 miles ago, but I see your point about not making a mess... maybe I'll go with Redline this time...

I would probably just drain it through a coffee filter and reuse the fluid.

Yeah, that would be cheaper... although I'd just use a paper towel. Why waste a filter :P?

[flame suit on]

I've used blue shop towels to filter a WVO/D2 mix before they worked just fine. It just takes 5 years to drop through unless you push the fluid with a pump.

Not that you're necessarily planning on it, but if you do end up deciding to resurface the flywheel, you should plan on replacing the bolts (not to mention you'll have to find a way to hold the engine from turning). I don't know about Toyota, but many manufacturers consider those bolts single-use.

toyota are cheapies - and the corolla was made for countries where mechanics only have basic hand tools and no lifts and bolts are always reused - so in proper sense you are supposed to replace them with new - however you can reuse them if they are not deformed, a bit of threadlock helps too.

In the US - those bolts are cheap and only a drive away to the dealer.

Hmm... I see that the Haynes manual says that halfshafts should not be reused. I want to reuse them. Is there a reason not to?

ask yourself this, would you really toss a set of good CV axles because some jabroni named haynes said it was a good idea?

unless the process of dropping the gearbox requires you to destroy the halfshafts, I see absolutely no reason you would get new ones. Actually sounds like a misprint to me. maybe its referring to an axle seal instead

Hehe. It says "driveaxle hub nut". Whoops :o.

Yeah, Toyota seems to be in that boat as well. I think I'd just buy new bolts -- we'll be saving enough money with me doing the labor as it is, so no point in cheaping out on crucial fasteners... if you google it, you can find peoples' horror stories about the old bolts breaking.

EDIT: ...and those little stinkers are special-order parts, $11 apiece -- I'll need eight. :puke:. Fingers crossed that FW is good.

The Haynes manual says I should go jump off a cliff. Should I?

For what it's worth I plan on attaching my 40# flywheel with either:

->Metric grade 12.9 fasteners, drilled for safety wire, and loctite

->Those fancy flanged bolts (there are multiple brands) Imports Locking header Bolt Kits | Locking Bolts

12.9 metric bolts can be drilled with a cheap jig and drill press, or hire a local engineering student to bang them out ton the mill.

Seriously, if you just walk into a local school's machine shop during open hours and say "I need someone to machine X I'll pay cash" you will have them lining up. I've turned rotors at school.

one more note: some bolts are listed as single-use because they were installed with loctite. If that's the case, just reloctite them. Now if they're stretch or deform bolts, then you replace em'

They are stretch bolts, but I just found a recommended aftermarket brand online for $33. :cool:

Ha! Well, the clutch has become much less talkative now. I guess it heard it was going to get kicked out... :cool:. I guess I'll just leave it alone for now in the hopes that it will last long enough for my sister to learn on it next fall.

Today, all four of us were in the Corolla, with me driving, climbing a hill. I was accelerating uphill in third gear, and at 25 MPH, the tach ran away from the speedometer, i.e., the clutch slipped. :(

We were in Maine at that point, and made it all the way back home just fine, but I'm wondering how much life the clutch has in it at this point. I drove to the auto parts store in it afterward, and had no issues whatsoever. I shift and rev-match very smoothly, release the clutch very quickly while keeping the revs at idle when starting from a standing stop, and always use the hand brake at a hill.

I should add... we are 400 miles away from 160,000, so we've put almost 10,000 miles on the clutch since it first started chattering. I guess I came up on the right side of my estimate of +/-5000 miles before the clutch blew :).

That was a 2nd gear hill.

Nahh. I've taken hills like that in third for the past 30,000 miles with no problems.

And besides, wouldn't the car be making more power in second than in third and so be more likely to slip the clutch?

When a clutch begins to slip it will always slip in the highest gear first as that is the place where the clutch is stressed the most.

Oh my... the Corolla clutch has something to tell me... yes, clutch chatter...
 

Should be clarified -- torque is where it is stressed not necessarily low gearing. More where it sees low rpm load, if an engine is torquey down low then letting it out lower will induce more stress and therefor chatter on a weak clutch. Diesels are notorious for this, but ra the same symptoms on gas engines.


Sent from an abacus

A late note and not particularly for the corolla:
"Clutch chatter", first thing is to check all of the mountings for the engine, trans, bell housing and exhaust.

Acid tests for clutch: Short shift into third, rev engine, drop clutch. (even better, skip third, rolling in second, drop the clutch in fourth) Weak clutch will run away. Same idea: stopped somewhere safe, set e-brake, hold brake pedal, select high gear, rev engine, let out clutch. Weak clutch will slip before killing engine or fail to kill engine.

Many clutches outlast the car. If you have to replace one just go ahead and do the whole job, resurfacing included. Also research the particular vehicle to see what else to do with the transmission out. Some replacements are impossible or nearly so with the trans in. Look hard at the CV boots and steering boots for example. Trans and engine seals, etc. Cleaning and regreasing CVs is often a one time job also.

You also might notice that your fuel economy is not what it used to be. Heat buildup in the bell housing might be increasing. Letting a bad clutch go is a really ugly thing to do to a car. For the price of a few tanks of fuel, fix it.

Pressure wash under the car before you start. Wear gloves.

Fuel economy is the same. The clutch has only slipped once, and that was accelerating uphill under full load with four adults + stuff in the car. Why do you think that driving the car when the clutch is not slipping would be a problem? I did a local drive in it last Saturday, and experienced no issues.

Obviously, I'm not going to drive it more than I have to, but I need to get the Buick running so that I have an alternate ride and can stop driving this car. I was going to do that today, but I have what feels like a combination head cold + stomach bug + headache and have been confined inside all day...
Not with my skin condition.

I once had a Honda Civic, something from the mid-80's. I would get this clutch slipping thing now and then and finally decided to tear everything down and replace the clutch.

Well, I had to replace the clutch because it was oil soaked. The rear seal had started leaking and oil was everywhere. But nothing was leaking on the ground; it seems the clutch plate was soaking up the oil. The clutch plate itself looked good except for the dark color of oil, so while the clutch was not the problem it was a victim of the leaking rear seal.

So I threw in a new rear seal while I was in there and in every clutch replacement since, no matter what it is, I do the same if possible.

And by if possible: Some Mercedes from the 60's and 70's use a piece of rope that is beat into the grooves around the crankshaft for a seal. This means dropping the pan, removing the crankshaft..... It gets labor intensive fast.

The clutch has only slipped once since that day in Maine, which is good... I'm pretty confident about driving the car within 30 miles of the house. I'm (generally :D) avoiding hard acceleration and planning my driving routes and habits around the clutch.

As long as the clutch is not slipping it is not hurting anything. When it does slip it will only hurt itself....no danger to any other components but if it slips much on the road it will burn out and you will be stranded somewhat shortly.

I'll ask this again... I'm assuming for now that the FW will be OK, but if it isn't, we'll obviously be taking care of that, too. Is there anything else that should be done while I am in there?