A rose by another name...

[Botnst]

LAST week, Johnson took a look at some of the advantages of bilingualism. These include better performance at tasks involving "executive function" (which involve the brain's ability to plan and prioritise), better defence against dementia in old age and—the obvious—the ability to speak a second language. One purported advantage was not mentioned, though. Many multilinguals report different personalities, or even different worldviews, when they speak their different languages.

It’s an exciting notion, the idea that one’s very self could be broadened by the mastery of two or more languages. In obvious ways (exposure to new friends, literature and so forth) the self really is broadened. Yet it is different to claim—as many people do—to have a different personality when using a different language. A former Economist colleague, for example, reported being ruder in Hebrew than in English. So what is going on here?

Benjamin Lee Whorf, an American linguist who died in 1941, held that each language encodes a worldview that significantly influences its speakers. Often called “Whorfianism”, this idea has its sceptics, including The Economist, which hosted a debate on the subject in 2010. But there are still good reasons to believe language shapes thought.

Much more: Multilingualism: Johnson: Do different languages confer different personalities? | The Economist

[aklim]

Lets forget the 2nd and 3rd language till you can get the 1st one down and that means spelling and reading. Till you have mastery of the first, don't talk about learning a 2nd or 3rd. Get the words pronounced right, make proper sentences with good grammar, etc, etc then we talk about you getting to learn a 2nd language.

[Honus]

I think that learning a foreign language is a good way for one to improve his command of his native language. That was the sense I got back when I took French in high school. I believe that taking French improved my English. I talk much gooder now.

[TwitchKitty]

I write more better too. My thinking is out of this world.

[link]

IIRC the expression goes as follows: If you speak 3 languages you are trilingual; if you speak 2 languages you are bilingual, and if you speak 1 language you are American.

I have formal kollege training in 2 languages and speak 2 other languages a little due to my upbringing and agree in the abstract that the ability to speak (read and think in) more than one language may enhance one’s world view, but only in an abstract way. This would be the same abstract way that any noteworthy pool of knowledge can do the same thing. F’instance, would Botnst be Botnst if it were not for a lot of years in school and a life devoted to learning?

In my case, being obligated to learn another language as part of my kollege kurricula and then being obligated to demonstrate that proficiency enough to qualify for GRE, lead to a degree of contempt…..but….. it least it was a degree in the Arts. . .

Anyway, the title scores points

[aklim]

Learning a second language is not harmful. However if you cannot even master the first one, what is the point of forcing a second one on you? If you have mastered the first one and think it is beneficial to do a second one, by all means. Till you can add and subtract, why ask you to multiply and divide? Not that learning 4 operations is not a good thing but master your native tongue first. Walk before running.

[SwampYankee]

Originally Posted by aklim

Lets forget the 2nd and 3rd language till you can get the 1st one down and that means spelling and reading. Till you have mastery of the first, don't talk about learning a 2nd or 3rd. Get the words pronounced right, make proper sentences with good grammar, etc, etc then we talk about you getting to learn a 2nd language.

I don't think mastery needs to be the minimum threshold before taking on another language, a good working knowledge might be. I wouldn't say that I've mastered the English language (I know, the hell you say! ). I do think I'm sufficiently proficient to move onto another one, though.

I'm hardly bilingual, although I did take 6 years of Spanish between middle school and high school so I can generally read enough to figure out what's on paper. Understanding the spoken word is much more difficult for me. We have started teaching my 7yo S Spanish since he has a number of bilingual Puerto Rican and Ecuadorian friends and he has an interest in learning it. Since it's a requirement in our school system in post-elementary grades it will give him a good head start by the time he gets there. Besides it's a lot easier for young skulls to absorb.

[aklim]

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

I don't think mastery needs to be the minimum threshold before taking on another language, a good working knowledge might be. I wouldn't say that I've mastered the English language (I know, the hell you say! ). I do think I'm sufficiently proficient to move onto another one, though.

Besides it's a lot easier for young skulls to absorb.

I'm not sure what you consider mastery. I don't think you need to be able to use huge long words to be considered master of the domain. You however need to be able to express yourself well enough to say get a job. OTOH, if you can only say "Ah needs to ax you wha choo wants to.....", I wouldn't consider it mastery or sufficiently proficient. If you can't use simple contractions like "you're" and say "your" instead, well.......

It might be easier for young people to absorb but again, "can" is meaningless if you lack the attitude. If you cannot speak your native tongue, how will I expect you to master your grammar and spelling for a 2nd language? In theory, it is easier to master when you are young. However, if your attitude sucks, easier doesn't mean squat. It is easier to lose weight when you are young but if you insist on eating twinkies all day long, it will be easier to lose weight when you are 50 if you have the right attitude. With the wrong attitude, it might be easier in theory but it is a waste of time and resources. As I say, if you can't even master the 3 Rs, why do I want to toss more time and effort and money into you? Show me you can first then I spend the money

[Zulfiqar]

As Aklim said - you need full command of your first language to actually learn another. Half attempts dont work.

I speak multiple languages but to learn them I had to master my mother tongue and keep it in practice without which it would be impossible to get into the finer details of other languages which for me includes English.

[elchivito]

Originally Posted by Zulfiqar

As Aklim said - you need full command of your first language to actually learn another. Half attempts dont work.

I speak multiple languages but to learn them I had to master my mother tongue and keep it in practice without which it would be impossible to get into the finer details of other languages which for me includes English.

If you're speaking of adults, no argument. But as bot stated, and I know personally and professionally to be true; children can learn two or three languages at once without confusion. It can be the tower of Babel for a while, but eventually they sort it out without issue. My son babbled along using whatever vocabulary he felt most comfortable with till about age three, when he began to distinguish, responding when spoken to in the same language, and choosing which language to use depending on who he was talking to. The girls did the same thing with English and spanish.
From birth to roughly pre-adolescence, actual hardwiring is taking place in the brain. Neural pathways are created in response to spoken language. Once those pathways are created, they don't go anywhere. Memorization takes a backseat in this learning scenario. They're still there in Bot's old noggin. If he takes a spanish immersion trip he'll be amazed at how fast the language comes back to him.
The growth process stops at about age 12, and anyone older than that who learns another language must rely solely on memorization. I see this all the time in school. Give me a kindergartner straight from southern Mexico who doesn't know a word of English, and she'll be able to use simple expressions to express her needs by Thanksgiving, and writing sentences by spring. The same kid entering school here at the age of 13 will find it infinitely more difficult to pick up English.

[elchivito]

I grew up bilingual and so did my first two kids. My last is trilingual. He speaks his mother's language as well as mine. All of the ceremonies he participates in are conducted in his tribe's language and he would be lost; have no understanding of the wisdom and world view of his people without knowing the language. Language is key to the transmission of culture through generations. Myriad subtleties in word usage reveal world views. One very simple example: The spanish verb esperar means not only to "wait", but to "anticipate" and to "hope".
Among native Americans, the loss of language is the precursor to the dilution of culture. I put a lot of stock in much of Whorf's views.

[Honus]

I've gotten to know a guy from Central America (I'm embarrassed to admit that I forget which country) with 6-year-old daughter in first grade in one of our very good public schools. He says she speaks and writes equally well in English and Spanish. That ability will give her a leg up on her peers as she goes through life.

[TwitchKitty]

Originally Posted by elchivito

, the loss of language is the precursor to the dilution of culture.

Deracination

[dynalow]

Dual Immersion.

Utah Dual Immersion - YouTube

USOE - Dual Immersion - Home

If I was a parent with young kids in Utah, I'd go for it.

[Mike Murrell]

To Aklim's point......

When I started to take a more serious interest in another language, I first had to put on the brakes and review grammar fundamentals in English.

Future, conditional, imperative, subjunctive just to name a few....

I needed to go back and review how this worked in my native language before I could possibly understand it in one unknown to me.