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whunter 01-15-2014 04:33 PM

lennox furnace model G12D2E-82-8 issues
 
I am 99% sure it is the fan limit switch, causing frequent furnace blower cycling, (even when the burner is off).
It was replaced 20 years ago for the same issue.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ps8d11c6a1.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psb306aa6b.jpg

fan limit switch
Lennox# 15P38
or
Honeywell# L4064W1098

As a momentary fix, changing the fan limit switch setting 5° F seems to have reduced the frequent blower cycling issue.


.

barry12345 01-15-2014 10:27 PM

Assuming it is the common bi metallic version. They do fatigue and tire with time. Usually in my limited experience fan controls slowly lose their range of movement. Or lack of actual response in degrees moved for thermal changes if you wish. They have just lost their rotational motion torque to a large degree so their range of movement becomes very weak and impaired. It takes work to close contacts and they cannot do it reliably or accurately when tired.

Twenty years may even be a little longer than usual for an average lifespan of a fan control these days. You can lose some efficiency of heat delivery with a shakey old control. Once you get down to doing minor adjustments to get by with it. It is time.

Now the fan control on a really high delivery modern gas furnace may not rely on a bimetallic control. I have no familiarity with more modern gas furnaces.

That unit of yours looks like a simple bi metallic fan switch with the high limit incorporated. Judging by the wire count. I did find the appearance of it somewhat different so looked up the part numbers. Pictorially they did not show the same control as you have. It is almost like someone may have installed a different unit than was original. Can you have a look at the fan switch itself for a part number? The lennox control has been discontinued but suspect it was probably a Honeywell relabel version anyways. Also the Honeywell part number has been replaced as well.

I usually buy heating system parts as needed at local trade suppliers. Some plumbing and electrical wholesalers suppliers have a furnace controls section.

Xlimodriver 01-16-2014 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345 (Post 3271977)


Twenty years may even be a little longer than usual for an average lifespan of a fan control these days.

Before spending money on a new fan/limit control I would check the condition of the heat exchanger. After 20 years those old Lennox models are riddled with rust.
Just get a flashlight and mirror and check the top of the heat exchanger through the burner ports in front.
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/gSlimkd82bg/maxresdefault.jpg
Back when I was working as a sub-contractor for the gas utility in Toronto I would have to disconnect and red tag at least 5-6 every month.

barry12345 01-17-2014 01:16 PM

I always thought it prudent to have at least a carbon monoxide detector in any dwelling where any form of fossil fuels where burnt. Early detection of inner body or flue issues are caught. Probably code in a lot of juristictions on new construction where any form of fossil fuel is used. Hope you do not find your older heat exchanger broached yet.

whunter 01-17-2014 03:31 PM

FYI
 
Call it paranoia. :curtain:
https://www.google.com/search?q=defective+carbon+monoxide+detector&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Having lost several relations to carbon monoxide, I feel this is rational. :book:

I have two carbon monoxide detectors, purchased five years apart. :2thumbsup

They are from different manufacturers. :bulb:

They are tested twice per year. :thumbsup:

I replace one unit every ten years. :fireman:

http://www.trulia.com/blog/KathleenTurner/2010/12/help_it_s_1am_and_my_carbon_monoxide_detector_is_going_off

defective carbon monoxide detector
https://www.google.com/search?q=defective+carbon+monoxide+detector&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

.

whunter 01-17-2014 04:13 PM

Thanks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Xlimodriver (Post 3272153)
Before spending money on a new fan/limit control I would check the condition of the heat exchanger. After 20 years those old Lennox models are riddled with rust.
Just get a flashlight and mirror and check the top of the heat exchanger through the burner ports in front.

Back when I was working as a sub-contractor for the gas utility in Toronto I would have to disconnect and red tag at least 5-6 every month.

I will inspect it again asap, four years since last checked.

I am looking at replacement this year, increasing heating capacity to 125,000 btu.
The old Lennox unit never has been adequate under -10° F.

Note:
Please don't suggests sealing / insulating the house better, the walls are R-30, attic is R-60, floor is R-19, foundation crawl space walls R-13, windows are twenty year old thermal double pane.

.

kerry 01-17-2014 04:16 PM

How many -10F days do you see? May not be worth upgrading just to solve that problem. If it has trouble at that temperature, a couple of $30 electric oil radiators could supplement it for the few days of the year it's working hard.

barry12345 01-17-2014 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter (Post 3272867)
I will inspect it again asap, four years since last checked.

I am looking at replacement this year, increasing heating capacity to 125,000 btu.
The old Lennox unit never has been adequate under -10° F.

Note:
Please don't suggests sealing / insulating the house better, the walls are R-30, attic is R-60, floor is R-19, foundation crawl space walls R-13, windows are twenty year old thermal double pane.

.

House exposed to a lot of winds? Possible distribution issues rather than heat generation capacity? Efficiency of the old furnace would be less than a new one today anyways. Perhaps in a very big way.

Insulation does not do much good if substantial penetration by wind is occurring. The gentleman previous posting may know something about those early furnace efficiencies in comparison to todays.

Back approximately 40 years ago when your furnace was new. If it was that long ago. Natural gas was generally cheap. No reason for a manufacturer like lennox to give great efficiency then.

The last new gas furnace our son in law installed looked loaded with computer type driven functions. It actually surprised me how complex it seemed. When they get down to only needing a plastic pipe through the wall outlet they have to be efficient.

Well if the detectors are not firing off it sounds like no breeches exist yet and that is a good thing. A shakey fan switch or one not set right will seriously waste heat. Plus 125,000 btu is a a lot of capacity up to about 2500 square feet floor area in a house as well insulated as yours usually.

That's is if the ductwork is not choking it off . There are simple ductwork guides on the internet that do not require a lot of math calculation. A quick separation test is to read the plenum temperature with a spot heat gun. It should dip and stay lower after the fan starts. If it rises further I would assume the ductwork is inadequate for the furnace output. Or the fan is too weak.Then too much heat is going up the flue.

Xlimodriver 01-18-2014 08:00 AM

From 56% To 98.5%
 
Old, low-efficiency heating systems:

Natural draft that creates a flow of combustion gases
Continuous pilot light
Heavy heat exchanger
56% to 70% AFUE.

Mid-efficiency heating systems:


Exhaust fan controls the flow of combustion air and combustion gases more precisely
Electronic ignition (no pilot light)
Compact size and lighter weight to reduce cycling losses
Small-diameter flue pipe
80% to 83% AFUE.

High-efficiency heating systems:

Condensing flue gases in a second heat exchanger for extra efficiency
Sealed combustion
90% to 98.5% AFUE.
Furnaces and Boilers | Department of Energy

whunter 02-06-2014 08:18 PM

Update
 
The blower died, pulling it now for teardown, inspection, repair or junk.
Will buy a replacement unit tomorrow Lennox# 89C37

Electric space heaters for tonight.

.

kerry 02-06-2014 08:32 PM

I've replaced a number of blower motors. Not a difficult job and worth doing if the heat exchanger is intact and the furnace otherwise is functional. In a pinch you could put a box fan in there and wire it to the blower wires.

whunter 02-06-2014 08:39 PM

Hmm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry (Post 3283179)
I've replaced a number of blower motors. Not a difficult job and worth doing if the heat exchanger is intact and the furnace otherwise is functional. In a pinch you could put a box fan in there and wire it to the blower wires.

I will try this, there are several box fans on hand.

.

KarTek 02-06-2014 09:01 PM

I don't think a box fan will move enough air and the over temp sensor will trip over and over because the heat exchanger will over heat.

whunter 02-06-2014 09:20 PM

Motor pictures
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter (Post 3283172)
The blower died, pulling it now for teardown, inspection, repair or junk.
Will buy a replacement unit tomorrow Lennox# 89C37

Electric space heaters for tonight.

.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ps9d2ff87e.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psdadb1120.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ps06a561c9.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ps753c2cbd.jpg


.

vstech 02-06-2014 10:37 PM

ugh... looks like two or more fields are burned out. does the dataplate have an RPM or HP rating?

whunter 02-06-2014 10:48 PM

Answer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech (Post 3283256)
ugh... looks like two or more fields are burned out. does the dataplate have an RPM or HP rating?

HZ 60
AMPS 7.6
HP 1/5
RPM 1050

.

kerry 02-06-2014 11:13 PM

When I had this problem I went to a local electric motor supplier who sold me an exact replacement.

whunter 02-06-2014 11:17 PM

Yes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry (Post 3283276)
When I had this problem I went to a local electric motor supplier who sold me an exact replacement.

First thing in the morning..


.

pawoSD 02-07-2014 08:40 AM

Wow, you'd recoup the cost of a new high efficiency furnace in no time vs. that ancient thing. Its probably barely 60% efficient if its a normal draft-furnace. You're sending 40%+ of your bill out the exhaust every month. :eek: I have a 72,000 btu rated 92% efficiency furnace and it heats approx. 2,800sq feet even in the -5 to -10F temps we've been having no problem....I'd say when its 5F out it runs about 25 mins of every hour over 2-3 cycles. Modern furnaces are MUCH better than ones that old. Don't fix it, dump it!

125,000btu would be WAY overkill. Or at least it should be....how big is the house? Usually a furnace that size would be in a house well over 3,000sq ft!

dynalow 02-07-2014 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD (Post 3283385)
Wow, you'd recoup the cost of a new high efficiency furnace in no time vs. that ancient thing. Its probably barely 60% efficient if its a normal draft-furnace. You're sending 40%+ of your bill out the exhaust every month. :eek: I have a 72,000 btu rated 92% efficiency furnace and it heats approx. 2,800sq feet even in the -5 to -10F temps we've been having no problem....I'd say when its 5F out it runs about 25 mins of every hour over 2-3 cycles. Modern furnaces are MUCH better than ones that old. Don't fix it, dump it!125,000btu would be WAY overkill. Or at least it should be....how big is the house? Usually a furnace that size would be in a house well over 3,000sq ft!

Don't fix it, dump it!

x2 .....unless you have plans to get out of DEEtroit sometime soon ;)

dynalow 02-07-2014 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD (Post 3283385)
Wow, you'd recoup the cost of a new high efficiency furnace in no time vs. that ancient thing. Its probably barely 60% efficient if its a normal draft-furnace. You're sending 40%+ of your bill out the exhaust every month. :eek: I have a 72,000 btu rated 92% efficiency furnace and it heats approx. 2,800sq feet even in the -5 to -10F temps we've been having no problem....I'd say when its 5F out it runs about 25 mins of every hour over 2-3 cycles. Modern furnaces are MUCH better than ones that old. Don't fix it, dump it!
125,000btu would be WAY overkill. Or at least it should be....how big is the house? Usually a furnace that size would be in a house well over 3,000sq ft!

Don't fix it, dump it!

x2 .....unless you have plans to get out of DEEtroit sometime soon ;)

pawoSD 02-07-2014 08:59 AM

Only cars are supposed to be money pits. :D Don't turn the furnace into one too! :D

kerry 02-07-2014 10:36 AM

There are good reasons for keeping old furnaces. They're roughly the same reasons for keeping old Mercedes diesels. They're simple, reliable and easy for the DIY to work on. A repair on a new high efficiency furnace will probably require a $600 board versus a $90 motor or a $30 switch on an old furnace.

pawoSD 02-07-2014 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry (Post 3283458)
There are good reasons for keeping old furnaces. They're roughly the same reasons for keeping old Mercedes diesels. They're simple, reliable and easy for the DIY to work on. A repair on a new high efficiency furnace will probably require a $600 board versus a $90 motor or a $30 switch on an old furnace.

Incorrect. An old furnace is approximately 35% or more LESS efficient than a modern unit, and brings with it safety risks such as a cracked old heat exchanger. In a single cold winter, you could spend over $1000 more heating with an old piece of junk than with a new furnace depending on the size of house. My high efficiency unit is in its 5th season and all I've had to do is air filters and replaced a piece of plastic tubing that was leaking water. VS an old unit it has paid for itself twice over just in the fuel savings at this point. The control boards are not that unreliable, mine even has it right in the box with the burners and draft blower and its been just fine. Higher end furnaces put the electronics in their own closed compartment so they are even more protected.

DIY on the HE units isn't even that hard, just need to know a little more about basic electronics. They are no more sophisticated than the auto-klima boards on our old MB's. You can buy a decent brand new HE furnace for less than $1700 that will give 15+ years of service....its a no brainer.

whunter 02-07-2014 11:33 AM

OK
 
$138.00 USD for a new blower motor.

Happy wife + warm house = priceless...


.

kerry 02-07-2014 11:36 AM

I never wrote that newer furnaces weren't more efficient. I know they are. Your view depends on the assumption that the owner of the furnace pays the utility bills.

pawoSD 02-07-2014 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry (Post 3283491)
I never wrote that newer furnaces weren't more efficient. I know they are. Your view depends on the assumption that the owner of the furnace pays the utility bills.

If the furnace doesn't belong to the person using it and they don't pay the bills to run it then its kindof a moot point in that case. Rental properties are up to the owner to improve. However, the majority people do pay the bills for their equipment's operation, so being as efficient as possible is in their best interest, especially considering the long-term nature of things like furnaces and boilers.

Xlimodriver 02-07-2014 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD (Post 3283474)
Incorrect. An old furnace is approximately 35% or more LESS efficient than a modern unit, and brings with it safety risks such as a cracked old heat exchanger. In a single cold winter, you could spend over $1000 more heating with an old piece of junk than with a new furnace depending on the size of house. My high efficiency unit is in its 5th season and all I've had to do is air filters and replaced a piece of plastic tubing that was leaking water. VS an old unit it has paid for itself twice over just in the fuel savings at this point. The control boards are not that unreliable, mine even has it right in the box with the burners and draft blower and its been just fine. Higher end furnaces put the electronics in their own closed compartment so they are even more protected.

DIY on the HE units isn't even that hard, just need to know a little more about basic electronics. They are no more sophisticated than the auto-klima boards on our old MB's. You can buy a decent brand new HE furnace for less than $1700 that will give 15+ years of service....its a no brainer.

I agree! The first thing I did 10 years ago when I moved up here was install a high efficiency forced air and capped off the chimneys and installed a ventless natural gas fireplace after tearing out the rusted cast iron firebox in the downstairs wood burning fireplace. A 140 year old house is already equipped with enough cracks and to provide combustion air for the fireplace.
BTW, the fireplace insert is illegal in Ontario, I had to drive Watertown NY to buy it. I just hate sending hot air up and out a chimney.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5009/5...e83045b6_z.jpg

whunter 02-07-2014 12:17 PM

Answer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD (Post 3283385)
Wow, you'd recoup the cost of a new high efficiency furnace in no time vs. that ancient thing. Its probably barely 60% efficient if its a normal draft-furnace. You're sending 40%+ of your bill out the exhaust every month. :eek: I have a 72,000 btu rated 92% efficiency furnace and it heats approx. 2,800sq feet even in the -5 to -10F temps we've been having no problem....I'd say when its 5F out it runs about 25 mins of every hour over 2-3 cycles. Modern furnaces are MUCH better than ones that old. Don't fix it, dump it!

125,000btu would be WAY overkill. Or at least it should be....how big is the house? Usually a furnace that size would be in a house well over 3,000sq ft!

I have been looking for several years.

* This is an up-flow furnace.
* There are several high efficiency furnaces that will fit the seriously limited space.
* Most of the 1939 vintage ducting and the hood which are structurally built into the ceiling / walls should be replaced, because they have been inspected and refused by multiple cleaning companies.
* The attic has been over insulated = add several extra days to move and re-install the insulation.

.

barry12345 02-07-2014 12:50 PM

If a common motor are any of the furnace service guys a customer or friend? They usually have good used spare parts for almost everything. Some just naturally hoard parts. See you already have something in common with them.:D

Sometimes even calling a service guy cold could get you what you want at a price you like. If the shaft is not latterly sloppy usually blower motors have a lot of time left in them. Time frame is many years usually.

Even out of my own stash of used furnace parts I replaced a motor, repaired a pump that I suspect got water in it by combining two. The pump was jammed and took out the start winding of the motor I think. The pump housing was different but I assumed rightly the internals where the same. The motor to pump coupling was on it's last legs as well.

To top it off one electrode insulator had become conductive probably from the furnace sitting around unused for several years. Contaminated moisture probably started the conductive path. Furnace has been chugging alone fine since the repair last fall.

I am using it as a temporary heat source on a project feeding it from a five gallon jugs. Thirty dollars today fills a jug and it depletes it fairly fast.

Alas we had a connection for .30 a litre or about 1.20 an American gallon diesel fuel. Unfortuantly the supplier of it died in a car crash last year. On a rollover on grass the roof collapsed and damaged his head.

Since I observed many American cars no longer have any strength in the roof structure I will not buy them. This was noticed some years back as I drive past a towing yard place almost daily. Just too many big three car roofs where partially or totally collapsed. General motors labels seemed the worse. Or perhaps it is just because of the big three they have more cars on the road. It was a smaller Pontiac car that got our supplier.

Also a service guy may be able to locate and tell you where a slightly used cheap high efficiency gas furnace may be. With all the housing coming down in Detroit. Detroit should be good for something.

I do not want it to sound like I am being tight. Years ago I just found it is not how many dollars you make instead it is how you spend them that makes the difference. I suspect the economy would suffer a serious setback if everyone did this as well.

The problem with this attitude is it became habitual. As the need decreased and disappeared I am still at it. I fix/repair/replace everything we own pretty well by these methods. I suspect you do much the same. I am also in a casual network where we exchange services and parts with people of similar charactaristics.

With your current pain and concerns I would probably take the fastest and easiest path for this one though. Then when better go find that furnace for 2-300 dollars or less.Two to three years old should be fine.

Since you are yet not feeling that good I an going to throw in a hopefully funny story about how cheap I am as a distraction. While getting my hair cut the barber asked me if I could locate double edged razor blades somewhere cheap as he could not. He said he would give me haircuts in exchange for them.

So we cut a deal. He suggested the almost free haircuts for them. I have to buy the blades. Another substantial supply of gillete double edged blades arrived from India this morning. Both in the deal are happy. Essentially both parties get what they want.

I think he is also reselling them. Whatever my haircuts are about three dollars each now. Meaningless in the grand scheme of life but cumulatively all of the various arrangements probably effectively double my income overall.

barry12345 02-07-2014 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD (Post 3283474)
Incorrect. An old furnace is approximately 35% or more LESS efficient than a modern unit, and brings with it safety risks such as a cracked old heat exchanger. In a single cold winter, you could spend over $1000 more heating with an old piece of junk than with a new furnace depending on the size of house. My high efficiency unit is in its 5th season and all I've had to do is air filters and replaced a piece of plastic tubing that was leaking water. VS an old unit it has paid for itself twice over just in the fuel savings at this point. The control boards are not that unreliable, mine even has it right in the box with the burners and draft blower and its been just fine. Higher end furnaces put the electronics in their own closed compartment so they are even more protected.

DIY on the HE units isn't even that hard, just need to know a little more about basic electronics. They are no more sophisticated than the auto-klima boards on our old MB's. You can buy a decent brand new HE furnace for less than $1700 that will give 15+ years of service....its a no brainer.

Mr .Hunters furnace I suspect is located on the first floor. Time till heat exchanger goes should be much longer. I would expect a furnace in that situation to have twice the life expectancy of one in the average basement environment.

kerry 02-07-2014 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345 (Post 3283533)

I do not want it to sound like I am being tight. Years ago I just found it is not how many dollars you make instead it is how you spend them that makes the difference. I suspect the economy would suffer a serious setback if everyone did this as well.

The problem with this attitude is it became habitual. As the need decreased and disappeared I am still at it. I fix/repair/replace everything we own pretty well by these methods. I suspect you do much the same. I am also in a casual network where we exchange services and parts with people of similar charactaristics.

With your current pain and concerns I would probably take the fastest and easiest path for this one though. Then when better go find that furnace for 2-300 dollars or less.Two to three years old should be fine.

Since you are yet not feeling that good I an going to throw in a hopefully funny story about how cheap I am as a distraction. While getting my hair cut the barber asked me if I could locate double edged razor blades somewhere cheap as he could not. He said he would give me haircuts in exchange for them.

So we cut a deal. He suggested the almost free haircuts for them. I have to buy the blades. Another substantial supply of gillete double edged blades arrived from India this morning. Both in the deal are happy. Essentially both parties get what they want.

I think he is also reselling them. Whatever my haircuts are about three dollars each now. Meaningless in the grand scheme of life but cumulatively all of the various arrangements probably effectively double my income overall.

I concur with virtually all of that. My exception is with haircuts. My wife has been cutting my hair for 30 yrs. That's a lot of money we have saved. Probably the price of 2 or 3 vehicles we have owned. :)

pawoSD 02-07-2014 12:59 PM

My wife does my haircuts too. :D

whunter 02-07-2014 01:06 PM

Yes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345 (Post 3283538)
Mr .Hunters furnace I suspect is located on the first floor. Time till heat exchanger goes should be much longer. I would expect a furnace in that situation to have twice the life expectancy of one in the average basement environment.

You are correct, center of the first floor.

.

pawoSD 02-07-2014 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter (Post 3283545)
You are correct, center of the first floor.

.

Michigan basement?

whunter 02-07-2014 03:38 PM

No
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD (Post 3283614)
Michigan basement?

38 inch crawl space and semi finished attic.

I may add a Michigan basement one day, or jack the house for a 24 foot drive in with hoists. :D :D :D

.

whunter 02-08-2014 07:58 AM

Happy
 
After 20 hours of operation with the new blower motor installed..

I am happy to report the furnace is running an average of 15 minutes every hour. :D

I suspect this failing motor at least partially explains the DIRTY power issue, that has fried many 110v devices ? :eek: :o

Gosh, could the damaged motor contribute to winter electric bills averaging $300.00+ USD per month ? :eek: :o

.

barry12345 02-08-2014 11:51 AM

Time to check for low household voltage. Motor failure chances grow with lowered voltage. If not that and it is just not a Christmas season type bill the defrost timer on the refrigerator may be jammed. What other type of 110 volt things have issues?

Any clues about the reason for the higher electrical bill would be related to your average previous bills. Low supply voltage also increases electrical draw..

There are several possibilities of why that blower fan motor may have expired besides wear and tear. Including the flakey temperature switch not allowing it to get a clean start when on the start windings. Or staying on the start windings too long.

If it is not one thing it is usually something else pretty frequently in my experience with life.. Including tax the kilowatt hour cost just accelerated another 3.5 cents here last month. now it is at about .15 cents per kilowatt. Highest rate in Canada I suspect. Furnace oil is better than 5.00 a gallon and natural gas has had 3-5 price increases this winter.

We heat 2000 square feet with an add on wood furnace. Costs about 800.00 a year. We reside three miles out of town so property taxes are about 1K a year instead of 5-7K for a similar house in town. That to me is the predominate reason there are so many unsold houses in town. The newer municipal town tax rates will alone drive prices lower in my opinion. To add to the peoples mysery is the water is metered in town and I think there is also a sewer charge separately. To me it is almost like being reduced to renting your own house currently there.

Replaced the television with a 60 inch smart Samsung this Christmas. It runs so cool that the savings in electrical draw will probably pay for it several times over its lifespan in comparison to the old set. Running your hand along the top after several hours running it still feels to be at ambient temperatures. There is only one warm spot about halfway down the back and it is only warm and small. The cost of living keeps rising and we compensate in many ways. This is an old habit of ours from a time that it was necessity. Sometimes it enables commercial items like the under counter led lighting that took sometime to finalise. I would turn it into a commercial thing except there is our ages to consider and the need for the money is not there. So I will probably sell the ideals as package as I have done before with other things. One thing always leads to another.

I better get out of here and get that heat exchanger installation completed that I am working on now.

whunter 02-08-2014 03:34 PM

Hmm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345 (Post 3283901)
Time to check for low household voltage. Motor failure chances grow with lowered voltage. If not that and it is just not a Christmas season type bill the defrost timer on the refrigerator may be jammed. What other type of 110 volt things have issues?

Any clues about the reason for the higher electrical bill would be related to your average previous bills. Low supply voltage also increases electrical draw..

There are several possibilities of why that blower fan motor may have expired besides wear and tear. Including the flaky temperature switch not allowing it to get a clean start when on the start windings. Or staying on the start windings too long.

If it is not one thing it is usually something else pretty frequently in my experience with life.. Including tax the kilowatt hour cost just accelerated another 3.5 cents here last month. now it is at about .15 cents per kilowatt. Highest rate in Canada I suspect. Furnace oil is better than 5.00 a gallon and natural gas has had 3-5 price increases this winter.

We heat 2000 square feet with an add on wood furnace. Costs about 800.00 a year. We reside three miles out of town so property taxes are about 1K a year instead of 5-7K for a similar house in town. That to me is the predominate reason there are so many unsold houses in town. The newer municipal town tax rates will alone drive prices lower in my opinion. To add to the peoples mysery is the water is metered in town and I think there is also a sewer charge separately. To me it is almost like being reduced to renting your own house currently there.

Replaced the television with a 60 inch smart Samsung this Christmas. It runs so cool that the savings in electrical draw will probably pay for it several times over its lifespan in comparison to the old set. Running your hand along the top after several hours running it still feels to be at ambient temperatures. There is only one warm spot about halfway down the back and it is only warm and small. The cost of living keeps rising and we compensate in many ways. This is an old habit of ours from a time that it was necessity. Sometimes it enables commercial items like the under counter led lighting that took sometime to finalize. I would turn it into a commercial thing except there is our ages to consider and the need for the money is not there. So I will probably sell the ideals as package as I have done before with other things. One thing always leads to another.

I better get out of here and get that heat exchanger installation completed that I am working on now.

FYI:
* Refrigerator failed, and was replaced with factory NEW, winter 2011, and again winter 2012..
Refrigerator has been on a dedicated uninterruptible power supply since 2012.

.

barry12345 02-08-2014 09:42 PM

. By dedicated I assume on it's own electrical circuit and that is also the current electrical code. Reduces circuit loss to other things if they draw substantially. Does not guarantee good voltage though if the house supply is low. Measure both legs for voltage. You do not want a semi floating neutral allowing more voltage on one leg than the other. Both sides should be equal. Too many people just measure across the two legs and 220-240 is all they mentally see forgetting that you are not referencing each leg to neutral.

A mechanical rotating defrost timer can become locked in the constant on scenario with any frost free refrigerator. Does not have to be a particularily age related failure.

Sometime when it is practical turn off all your other circuit breakers. Keep an eye on the electrical meter every fifteen minutes if it is moving. Look at four times. If it has continued to move those four times actually even just three times is probably enough. The defrost timer is jammed. Unless you have some type of current draw instrument that you plug the fridge into the first test will do.

If initially the meter is not moving the first time then the test is complete. It cannot be the defrosting heater locked on. Plus the refrigerator compressor is off at that time.

You are probably not going to like what one of our daughters said about two to four years ago. She managed a large furniture and appliance store then.

Basically that the old label north American fridges are junk now. Dad if mom ever wants another fridge buy one from the orient unless things change.

We use a non frost free fridge with no freezer compartment currently. Using a separate freezer for anything that has to stay frozen.

Dudesky 02-09-2014 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter (Post 3283832)
After 20 hours of operation with the new blower motor installed..

I am happy to report the furnace is running an average of 15 minutes every hour. :D

I suspect this failing motor at least partially explains the DIRTY power issue, that has fried many 110v devices ? :eek: :o

Gosh, could the damaged motor contribute to winter electric bills averaging $300.00+ USD per month ? :eek: :o

.

If it was running most of the time, yes.
Sounds like you have some electric company line issues.

whunter 02-09-2014 06:05 AM

OK
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345 (Post 3284047)
. By dedicated I assume on it's own electrical circuit and that is also the current electrical code. Reduces circuit loss to other things if they draw substantially. Does not guarantee good voltage though if the house supply is low. Measure both legs for voltage. You do not want a semi floating neutral allowing more voltage on one leg than the other. Both sides should be equal. Too many people just measure across the two legs and 220-240 is all they mentally see forgetting that you are not referencing each leg to neutral.

A mechanical rotating defrost timer can become locked in the constant on scenario with any frost free refrigerator. Does not have to be a particularly age related failure.

Sometime when it is practical turn off all your other circuit breakers. Keep an eye on the electrical meter every fifteen minutes if it is moving. Look at four times. If it has continued to move those four times actually even just three times is probably enough. The defrost timer is jammed. Unless you have some type of current draw instrument that you plug the fridge into the first test will do.

If initially the meter is not moving the first time then the test is complete. It cannot be the defrosting heater locked on. Plus the refrigerator compressor is off at that time.

You are probably not going to like what one of our daughters said about two to four years ago. She managed a large furniture and appliance store then.

Basically that the old label north American fridges are junk now. Dad if mom ever wants another fridge buy one from the orient unless things change.

We use a non frost free fridge with no freezer compartment currently. Using a separate freezer for anything that has to stay frozen.

I will check this out asap.

.

barry12345 02-09-2014 12:52 PM

If there is a problem and they are not all that unusual really. Plus to be absolutely clear. With a semi floating neutral you can experience say 140 volts on one leg and 90 volts or so on the other for example.

Normally both legs to neutral should be about the same voltage. If oxidation is present at a neutrals terminal it can change the individual legs voltage with it's resistance that may also vary with heating or loading. You want to measure that voltage with some electrical load on one side. Just a 1000-1500 watt 110 volt electrical heater plugged in anywhere in the house or some equivelant is fine,.

In the old days I never broke the neutral into two wires at the meter socket. Always just stripped the white or neutral enterance wire that contacted that area and fed one piece of wire down through so the neutral was never in two pieces going through the meter socket.

Then I got older with more contorted installations using aluminium wire. Was just a little too hard to do it that way so I break the neutral now on occasion. Personally I still do not like the practice.

This practice has resulted in oxidation problems in meter sockets causing some issues with older ones I did not install so far. Oxidation at a neutral termination can cause the semi floating neutral.

The local hydro people do not seem to care if I break meter seals on my properties. They just replace them when they notice. I think they are well aware that I do not steal electricity is a help.

Since you have other troubles or at least suspected ones. The fridge will probably check out okay. To me though with my limited abilities and knowledge. The fridge is always the first thing to eliminate if higher than normal power bills are present. Then you move on to other things.

I am not a working electrician and technically you need a licence here. So I just get a friendly electrician to get whatever permits are required and do just what I own or am building.

The electrician feels that I am competent enough and will cause him no grief. Other than that people that have heard I can run down problems call me a couple of times a year on average.

If your wife for example ever claims to get a slight tingle off of an appliance always take is seriously. Not from the aspect of getting electrocuted it just indicates something is going on that should be examined.

There are some much more competent members than myself on site that will also help you run down any electrical issues.

lorainfurniture 02-09-2014 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter (Post 3284146)
I will check this out asap.

.

If your fridge has a failed defrost timer, the unit will fail within a day or so. Maybe a few days in the winter months.

There is a piece in a freezer called a defrost limiter that shuts the heater off when a certain temp is reached. Basically if there is any problem with the ref, it will not work properly

There are still many domestic refs that work on the mechanical defrost timer.

pawoSD 02-10-2014 10:12 AM

The furnace should be on its down dedicated 15A circuit and probably has a 10A fuse at the power switch on the furnace itself, thus it should have never been able to draw more than 1200 watts max without blowing it. High power bills can come from a lot of things. Do you use any space heaters and are all your house lights incandescent? I would go around the house with a good multimeter and check voltages at all outlets. Anything in your garage that might be sapping power? :D With the state of D-troit infrastructure I'd not be surprised if the power coming to your house is very unstable and not clean.

barry12345 02-10-2014 01:43 PM

Well we in our area of eastern Canada tend to judge things and track them by the kilowatt hours used on our bills. Our billing period is every two months. Since the utility became private they increase the rates so often that dollar amounts would be misleading to mentally track total kilowatt hours used. .

There is even a six dollar surcharge to help customers increase efficiency and avoid the utilty having to increase generation capacity. For a change it is a great program so far.

They will come in and totally spray foam insulate a basement for example at no additional charge on request and make a direct contribution of decent proportions to anything that is more energy efficient like a new furnace or major appliance etc. change out you light bulbs, install a total off system for your television, on and on.

Naturally all this is paid for by the whole customer base. What makes it work so well is the vast majority do not bother to use it so far. So it concentrates available funds for those that do.. The program is audited and they are spending the money collected at least so far if not more.

It just occurred to me that I have a couple of air to air heat pumps on the way and should get them to pay the majority of the cost . The more efficient ones are in short supply. Mine apparently are in a container somewhere still.

Now back to Mr.Hunter. How many kilowatt hours are you using per billing period? What is the billing period? Do you have an old bill from a year or two ago or remember your consumption then?

Knowing these things can be a help in general. Especially how many people are living in your house. Sure these things are personal but not really intrusive of your privacy if posted is why I ask.

If anyone either has or is going to replace a water heater with an electric one buy a cheap normally insulated one and build an r60 insulated enclosure for it. Make the bottom at least r20 as well. The enclosure will cost you about the difference in cost between a normal water heater and a so called energy efficient model. Then you have the same efficiency as a tankless heater basically without the cost and possible headaches of them. Like almost everything the downside is the enclosure increases the size though. Some people have the space and others not.

Of course only safe to use on an electric water heaters. This nets the efficiency of a tankless water heater and payback with the massive reduction in standby costs is an additional quick repayment. Your enclosure makes their upgrade look like a sick puppy in comparison.

I am not the brightest light bulb myself and it just occurred to me that updating that flat screen television at Christmas may have had some eligibility in that program. Too late now if it did.

My attention to all things requiring energy was the serious ramping up of all energy costs and my suspicion locally this will continue. It is also just my opinion that there is so much money at stake leds will never change that much as their operation design is kind of locked in but there will be application improvements to come. Technically the multipal junction led is possible firing beams in all directions and may become the required evolution if not already out there. I cannot examine the whole market as I do not have the time.

The individual single junction leds having a fairly narrow beam of light output has caused me to design a better diffusion method than I have seen attempted. It has worked out to my satisfaction for under the counter lighting so far. Remember at times I can be extremely critical of what I want.

They are using about 7 watts per three foot fixture that is also dimmable. Since I cannot patent or register my approach it should remain no secret but involved quite an investment of mental effort and time to get it right.

Basically inadequate diffusion by semi opaque plastics was not satisfactory. You still saw evidence of the individual led beam effect. Or unequal light distribution if you wish. It would just not diffuse equally. Unless there were unreasonable losses.

Refraction of the beams first was inefficient if effective. What I did discover is there was little to no efficiency loss comparable if the opaque plastic was deeply ribbing on the surface. This was acting as a good much less loss refraction method. This diffused the light more equally and maintained a lower loss ratio..

Not rocket science again and so far see nothing on the market using this approach as well yet. I tend to also notice differences. Too many people are using home lighting with too low a kelvin temperature or the color of the light if you wish. Daylight color temperature bulbs or at least over 5000 degrees kelvin tend to make an area seem much brighter.

At first I thought this may be objectionable to some and may still be. For me it was a no brainer as you have more apparent light present at the same cost and I have grown to like it. Now I actually do not like warmer kelvin temperature lighting. I also think a lot of other people know and use this but just far from everyone.

I ramble on it this area because some things I do may be of common interest and in recent times there has been movement or changes in those areas. People need information to make more informed decisions. Efficient use of hydro has few down sides. As with most things watch out for the hype though.

Plus I want to see this thread active until the results of Mr. Hunters tests he is doing are in at least. Any distraction for him that can possibly take his mind away from his current suffering is good too.

I was just this morning thinking we should have named the latest dog lucky instead of chippo. That way the wife would always be asking me if I wanted to get lucky when he wanted in. Visitors would love the senario and it would boost my ego.:D

suginami 02-10-2014 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345 (Post 3284752)
......I was just this morning thinking we should have named the latest dog lucky instead of chippo. That way the wife would always be asking me if I wanted to get lucky when he wanted in. Visitors would love the senario and it would boost my ego.:D

Now this is funny. You have a great sense of humor. :)

whunter 02-10-2014 08:01 PM

FYI
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345 (Post 3284047)
. By dedicated I assume on it's own electrical circuit and that is also the current electrical code. Reduces circuit loss to other things if they draw substantially. Does not guarantee good voltage though if the house supply is low. Measure both legs for voltage. You do not want a semi floating neutral allowing more voltage on one leg than the other. Both sides should be equal. Too many people just measure across the two legs and 220-240 is all they mentally see forgetting that you are not referencing each leg to neutral.

A mechanical rotating defrost timer can become locked in the constant on scenario with any frost free refrigerator. Does not have to be a particularily age related failure.

Sometime when it is practical turn off all your other circuit breakers. Keep an eye on the electrical meter every fifteen minutes if it is moving. Look at four times. If it has continued to move those four times actually even just three times is probably enough. The defrost timer is jammed. Unless you have some type of current draw instrument that you plug the fridge into the first test will do.

If initially the meter is not moving the first time then the test is complete. It cannot be the defrosting heater locked on. Plus the refrigerator compressor is off at that time.

You are probably not going to like what one of our daughters said about two to four years ago. She managed a large furniture and appliance store then.

Basically that the old label north American fridges are junk now. Dad if mom ever wants another fridge buy one from the orient unless things change.

We use a non frost free fridge with no freezer compartment currently. Using a separate freezer for anything that has to stay frozen.

both legs are good.
120v on each.

I checked the mains and all house circuits.

Oscilloscope reading supply AC Waveform is fugly, furry, dirty...


.

barry12345 02-11-2014 12:51 AM

Well the two legs voltages sound good and perhaps a little better than average. I have never had good reason to apply my scope to the power grid supply.

A noisy waveform may or may not create issues. Yet that depends on how much. Since this is beyond me I will check with someone that will really know tomorrow and post.

I was sitting here also wondering if the system was putting some form of carrier on their system that you might be seeing. The same people tomorrow will tell me if a waveform like you have would mislead the power meter in any way. I will of course post their answers.

Or if it has any other negative effects. At least the phase positions are good or you would not read 240 volts in your case across the two legs.

There is something that is disturbing me a little about this dirty supply as you describe it. I just cannot put my finger on it so to speak. Part of me wants to think it may be coming in on the neutral. You could see that as what you are seeing on the scope. The neutral is not a true ground.

Anyways better minds than myself will answer the questions tomorrow. Or perhaps a more knowledgable member earlier.. The service is still grounded? That could filter the neutral perhaps to some extent. If visually grounded corrosion has not diminished the ground?

whunter 02-11-2014 07:53 AM

FYI
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345 (Post 3285060)
Well the two legs voltages sound good and perhaps a little better than average. I have never had good reason to apply my scope to the power grid supply.

A noisy waveform may or may not create issues. Yet that depends on how much. Since this is beyond me I will check with someone that will really know tomorrow and post.

I was sitting here also wondering if the system was putting some form of carrier on their system that you might be seeing. The same people tomorrow will tell me if a waveform like you have would mislead the power meter in any way. I will of course post their answers.

Or if it has any other negative effects. At least the phase positions are good or you would not read 240 volts in your case across the two legs.

There is something that is disturbing me a little about this dirty supply as you describe it. I just cannot put my finger on it so to speak. Part of me wants to think it may be coming in on the neutral. You could see that as what you are seeing on the scope. The neutral is not a true ground.

Anyways better minds than myself will answer the questions tomorrow. Or perhaps a more knowledgeable member earlier.. The service is still grounded? That could filter the neutral perhaps to some extent. If visually grounded corrosion has not diminished the ground?

The garage feeds off the same main, supplying multiple 240v units (as required) with no difficulty.

The compressor, and other equipment is physically disconnected from the power supply when not in use.


As an FYI, we have very serious constant power, phone,cable line (and other) damage from the local endangered squirrel. :mad: :mad:

.


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