This began with the discussion of Lincoln's (and other's) ideas to resettle American blacks in Africa or some other new state, because it was assumed that peaceful coexistence would be impossible, too difficult, not fair to blacks, something.

My point was that not sending them to some new Liberia but instead working to accommodate blacks here was a sort of atonement by itself, as many whites would no doubt have preferred that they all be shipped somewhere. White behavior was arguably pretty poor during a lot of it, not everyone was guilty certainly. At any rate, might not seem like much of a gift to blacks, OTOH, being resettled elsewhere might well have been worse. It's not like there were vacant countries available to settle approx. 4 million people. Ensuring that freed slaves wouldn't be unwelcome newcomers in some nation that had no culpability for the fact of their enslavement likely would have been difficult.

Affirmative action has been a mixed bag, but it was a step in the right direction IMO. The Job Corps had some success here and there and is still up and running though you don't hear much about it. George Foreman would probably not have been heavyweight champ without it. That not exactly being a sort of success in improved livelihood for the black community as a whole but it does speak of some success at stimulating personal development.

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Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Sorry, no. Whites did not create slavery; it had MANY fathers, including the African blacks who originally enslaved people and sold them to white traders. It is a HUMAN condition, created and propagated by HUMANS.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

Seriously, do you not comprehend the words?

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

Some people are still supporting the racist attitudes from before the civil war.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Among reputable newspapers and ethical newspeople in the old days, one didn't report what one couldn't fact-check.

Most people believe the War Between the States was fundamentally about slavery, Somewhere around 700k-800k soldiers died in that war, more than half were on the federal side. It cost taxpayers on both sides a fair penny, impoverishing the losers and putting the winners into a terrible economic depression.

White people did not invent slavery, nor did arabs, Romans, or whomever. Slavery was an acceptable estate of man since time recorded history. It was normal, not an aberration.

As industrialized agriculture replaced traditional methods countries generally emancipated or manumitted slaves. I could be wrong, but I think that the United States was the only country in the 19th century that fought a war over it rather than let industrialization destroy it.

While that certainly is true as to origins, the same could be said that genocide and ethnic cleansing is as old as well and that some societies were particularly "good" at it through history.

This thread derailed a loooong time ago

some societies were, ARE particularly "good" at it through history.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

It is true that tribal rivalries in Africa made it a lot easier for slavers to obtain slaves in Africa. I've made that argument myself in the past, that blacks were partly responsible. But I'm sorry, the bulk of the guilt rests with white Americans and Europeans. It was white slavers who enticed African collaborators with European high tech, and it was white slave owners that made the institution into a multi-generational abomination.

At any rate, Black African participation does not absolve whites involved of their guilt.

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Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

I would disagree. With over 700 posts, the themes of federalism, law and order and a media created western hero figure, shifted along with the news that the hero is a flawed one.

If the thread discussion veered over to voter fraud, homosexuality, the validity of religious belief, the Ukraine or whether air conditioning in older cars was a curse or virtue, that would have been a derailment.

And, what of the guilt of the British for enslaving the Irish?

The Irish Slave Trade

"The Irish slave trade began when James II sold 30,000 Irish prisoners as slaves to the New World. His Proclamation of 1625 required Irish political prisoners be sent overseas and sold to English settlers in the West Indies. By the mid 1600s, the Irish were the main slaves sold to Antigua and Montserrat. At that time, 70% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves.

Ireland quickly became the biggest source of human livestock for English merchants. The majority of the early slaves to the New World were actually white.

From 1641 to 1652, over 500,000 Irish were killed by the English and another 300,000 were sold as slaves. Ireland’s population fell from about 1,500,000 to 600,000 in one single decade. Families were ripped apart as the British did not allow Irish dads to take their wives and children with them across the Atlantic. This led to a helpless population of homeless women and children. Britain’s solution was to auction them off as well.

During the 1650s, over 100,000 Irish children between the ages of 10 and 14 were taken from their parents and sold as slaves in the West Indies, Virginia and New England. In this decade, 52,000 Irish (mostly women and children) were sold to Barbados and Virginia. Another 30,000 Irish men and women were also transported and sold to the highest bidder. In 1656, Cromwell ordered that 2000 Irish children be taken to Jamaica and sold as slaves to English settlers."

who mourns for them? where are the cries for repirations?

I hear what you're saying but doesn't eye-witness testimony have some validity?

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Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

"In time, the English thought of a better way to use these women (in many cases, girls as young as 12) to increase their market share: The settlers began to breed Irish women and girls with African men to produce slaves with a distinct complexion. These new “mulatto” slaves brought a higher price than Irish livestock and, likewise, enabled the settlers to save money rather than purchase new African slaves. This practice of interbreeding Irish females with African men went on for several decades and was so widespread that, in 1681, legislation was passed “forbidding the practice of mating Irish slave women to African slave men for the purpose of producing slaves for sale.” In short, it was stopped only because it interfered with the profits of a large slave transport company.

England continued to ship tens of thousands of Irish slaves for more than a century. Records state that, after the 1798 Irish Rebellion, thousands of Irish slaves were sold to both America and Australia. There were horrible abuses of both African and Irish captives. One British ship even dumped 1,302 slaves into the Atlantic Ocean so that the crew would have plenty of food to eat."

where are the movies and cries for justice for these lost souls? surely the suffering of one group of humans is as important as another. Is it because as a society we ignore this because the descendants of those who survived "look like us" or do we not care? ALL human suffering from this blight is horrible, so please don't forget the earth of this country is soaked not only with the blood of the black man...

Records state that, after the 1798 Irish Rebellion, thousands of Irish slaves were sold to both America and Australia

as you can see, this was AFTER we became a nation.....